Nightshade

This thread has been set up for a formal debate between Jon Promnitz and Jason Gastrich on the following resolution:

Resolved: Jesus Christ promised to return before his generation passed away, not a future generation.

Jon Promnitz will go first, taking the affirmative, and Jason Gastrich will oppose. The debate will have 6 rounds as agreed to from the parameters.

A Peanut Gallery is set up in the Biblical Criticism & History forum for the rest of us to comment on the debate.

Good luck to both participants!

Jason

Jon Promnitz

Hello,

I would like to begin by thanking Jason for agreeing to participate in this debate, Nightshade for his moderation, the readers for showing interest, and doubtingthomas for referring me to a helpful website.

My name is Jon Promnitz and I will argue that Jesus promised to return before his generation passed away.

Note: I did a lot of ‘cutting’ to stay under the limit. Because of this, you will have to look up a few more verses. For this I apologize. Go to crosswalk.com and click on Bible Study Tools.

Before continuing, please read Luke 21:1-38 in the KJV and The Goods News Translation.
[crosswalk.com has numerous versions and is my main resource for this debate]

Commentary and Context of Matthew 24:1-51 KJV
Throughout chapter 24, Jesus and his disciples converse directly, even privately.

Matthew 24
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

-The disciples approach Jesus privately, and say, "Tell us..." NOT, "tell them..." Also, the "sign of thy coming and of the end of the world" are linked conjointly. One of the most important aspects when studying scripture is the context and setting of passages. In context, it is clear that Jesus and the disciples are speaking with each other, discussing the end of the world. So far, the reading is set nearly 2000 years ago in Jerusalem. More specifically, the temple and upon the mount of Olives.


4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

-Jesus issues a direct WARNING to the disciples, to take affect immediately. Let no man decieve "you".


5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

-People pretended to be Christs within Jesus' generation. The disciples did hear of wars and rumours of wars, and the coming war that would result in the temple's destruction. These signs were fulfilled. The word "shall" is translated from the Greek word mello. It means "to be about" or "to be on the point of doing something".


7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

-In Matthew 28:2 and Acts 16:26, there were large earthquakes. Acts 11:28 shows that a great famine occurred. These signs were fulfilled. The word "sorrows" was taken from the Greek work odin. It is used in regards to intolerable anguish; "the pain of childbirth." The Good News Translation says in 24:8, All these things are like the first pains of childbirth. A 2000 year gap between the first pains of childbirth and the result of childbirth is a long time. It was DUE - if you will, to happen soon.


9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

-The persecution was to be very great, which is shown in scripture. In Acts 5:18, the apostles are put in prison. Later in Acts 5:40, they are flogged and ordered to never again speak in the name of Jesus. Paul is stoned in Acts 14:19. These signs were fulfilled.


10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

-All of these things happened. In 2 Timothy 4:10-15, Demas and Alexander were apostates. They betrayed and did evil unto Paul. Demas' love waxed cold for Paul and the Church, and he chose to love the present world. In
2 Peter 2:1 and 1 John 4:1, followers are warned that false prophets were in the world. These signs were fulfilled.


13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

-Jesus instructs his disciples to "endure unto the end". Not "endure until you die." If they headed Jesus' warnings, they would have a better chance at being saved from the destruction that was about to come. It is written in Luke 21:22, For THESE be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Read Luke 21:20-28 for the context. Other references are: Heb. 3:6, 14 and Rev. 2:25,26. The "shall be saved" is NOT the 'accept Jesus and instantly have salvation' message pastors exclaim on Sunday moring. But rather being saved from the destruction that was due to take place upon the Earth in "these days of vengeance" immediately before the Second Coming. (see 24:29)


14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

-According to scripture, the gospel was preached to all the world before Jesus' generation perished! Paul exclaims this in Romans 10:18, But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. Again in Romans 16:25-26, ...made known to all nations for the obedience of faith... Also see Colossians 1:5-6, 23. The first part was fulfilled. "Then shall the end come" was not.


15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

-The Good News calls it "The Awful Horror." More importantly, the "holy place" was destroyed in 70 A.D.!
This points to a 1st Century era. Christians commonly teach that another temple will be constucted to replace it. One little problem though: People can not randomly build a temple and call it "holy." The "holy place" is gone for good. This event in verse 15 has already happened.


16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

-Jesus is souding a warning alarm. Women "with child" will have a tough time protecting themselves from the destruction which is about to befall Jerusalem. For "then", following this destruction, shall be great tribulation.


22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

-The Good News, verse 22, But God has already reduced the number of days; had he not done so, nobody would survive. For the sake of his chosen people, however, God will reduce the days. God himself has shortened the days, otherwise none would survive the awful battle and the tribulation. Many antichrists came, 1 John 2:18, Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. John knew that the signs had been fulfilled, and he warned "little children" that it was the "last time". Not old timers who could die anytime, but little children that would live and see the return of Jesus. False prophets were seen in 1 John 4:1. These signs were fulfilled.


25 Behold, I have told you before.

-The Good News, verse 25, Listen! I have told you this ahead of time. Jesus would not ask these disciples to LISTEN and BEHOLD all these future disasters to remember what he has been warning them throughout the entire chapter. This warning was told to them, for them, explaining events to take place within their present lives. No future generations are in view here.


26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

-Jesus' coming was to be visible, "as the lightning" comes and shines from both the east and west.


28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

-The signs and events have already happened in the 1st century, these remaining events were to follow "IMMEDIATELY." There is an unbreakable succession of events.


30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

-"Immediately…Then" = First Century. There is no room for random gaps of thousands of years to be inserted.


31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

-Here is another problem for Preterists. Millions of angels go to the four corners of the earth and gather God's chosen people with the sound of a great trumpet, all unnoticed.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

-Jesus directly tells his Apostles "when ye shall see all these things". Jesus does not say, "if ye see..." Likewise, notice the reference to knowing summer is near if spring is already in bloom. Here is another indication of the shortness in his return. It is a parable, seeing the blossoming branch = seeing the signs and events, knowing that summer is nigh = knowing that Jesus was near, even at the doors. Individuals have tryed to distort this clear meaning into something related to Israel in 1948. Jesus even caps off the statement by reminding the disciples how near he really was. He was at their door. Not my door, or Bob's door. Not at our doors now, not at our children's in 100 years, not at our descendant's centuries from now.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

::The Greek
genea Noun Feminine
the whole multitude of men living at the same time
an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years
Easton's Bible Dictionary - Generation - Matt 24:34, "This generation" = the persons then living contemporary with Christ.


::Other Versions
New English Bible: "I tell you this: the present generation will live to see it all."

Today's English Version: "Remember this! All these things will happen before the people now living have all died."

Moffatt's Translation: "I tell you truly, the present generation will not pass away, till all this happens."

Weymouth's Translation: "I tell you in solemn truth that the present generation will certainly not pass away until all this has taken place."

These translations make it quite clear. The meaning of the word was that of the "present" generation in the time of Christ; not to a future generation thousands of years away.


::Literal and Clear Interpretation
The literal and obvious reading is that Jesus promised to return within his generation. When written out, his generation = this generation = the present generation = the people living contemporary with Christ.


::Parallel Passages
Mark 13 Good News, 28 "Let the fig tree teach you a lesson. When its branches become green and tender and it starts putting out leaves, you know that summer is near. 29 In the same way, when you see these things happening, you will know that the time is near, ready to begin. 30 Remember that all these things will happen before the people now living have all died.

Luke 21 Good News, 31 In the same way, when you see these things happening, you will know that the Kingdom of God is about to come. 32 "Remember that all these things will take place before the people now living have all died.

The fig tree was to teach a lesson, not predict Israel becoming a nation in 1948. In context, the chapters speak of destruction, not restoration. "This generation" of "the people now living" was to witness Jesus' return.


::Other Appearances of genea
Every time "this generation" is mentioned in the New Testament, it is always spoken by Jesus.
See Mat.11:16; 12:41-42, Mark 8:12, Luke 7:31; 11:30-32,50,51; 17:25

In each and every verse, it refers to the generation that was alive during Jesus' time. Other verses Jesus used "generation" in is Mat.12:39,45; 16:4; 17:17, Mark 8:38; 9:19, Luke 1:48,50; 9:41; 11:29; 16:8.

These all refer to an age of 30-40 years, and never as an age of 1000's of years.

Here are all other uses of the word "generation" (genea) Mat.1:17, Acts 2:40; 8:33; 13:36; 14:16 (times); 15:21 (time), Eph.3:5,21 (Ages…not age. This doesn't conflict with many "generations"), Phil.2:15 (nation), Col.1:26 (generations), and Heb.3:10. In context, its clear what the word "generation" means in these passages.


::The Understanding of the Apostles
The view of the Apostles is central to this debate. They had no trouble understading and accepting the promise of Jesus.

What did the disciples preach about the Second Coming?

Read Romans 13:11-12 NLT

Paul is urging the early Roman Christians to realize how ‘late’ it is, and that ‘time is running out’. The day of Jesus’ return will ‘soon be here’. “Another reason for RIGHT living…" The End was so close that Paul argued that the Romans should live RIGHTLY. It can only be said that time was NOT running out, NOR was the day at hand.


Read 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 NLT

Paul is writing to the church in Corinth. This message was intended directly for them and it states that not all of them will die, but will be changed. Of course, they all died many years ago without being changed or experiencing the last trump. Paul says “We shall not sleep". The ‘We’ includes Paul. It says, "at the last trump." Not, "after we die."


Read 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 NLT

Paul is writing to the church of Thessalonica in this ancient letter and he makes it perfectly clear he is telling them DIRECTLY from the Lord. Saying, “We who are still living when the Lord returns..." Somewhat strange, being that the Lord hasn’t returned and all those who were addressed DIRECTLY by God through Paul have been deceased for quite sometime. The Thessalonians were directly addressed, not Christians living 200 nor 2000 years later. “We who are still alive and remain…" were supposed to be caught up in the clouds. Even my Defender’s Study Bible confesses in the concordance that Paul errantly believed and taught the early return of Christ to the Thessalonians.


Read James 5:7-9 NLT

James was thought to have been an acknowledged leader of the Jerusalem church. James tells his followers, “brother and sisters", that ‘the judge is standing at the door’. They were told to “..be patient as you wait for the Lord’s return." They were not told to “..be patient as you wait for your death to approach.." Why should they be patiently waiting for the Lord’s return? “Don’t grumble, for look, he is at the door". How long does this door take to open?


1 Peter 4:7 NLT
The end of the world is coming soon. Therefore, be earnest and disciplined in your prayers.

It is assumed Simon Peter wrote the books of 1 and 2 Peter and that they were intended to spread the gospel message to what is now considered Turkey. In his message, he speaks of ‘the end of all things’ and ‘the end of the world’ coming soon. In the KJV, it says “be sober and watch unto prayer". WATCH for what!? Their inevitable deaths, or the end of all things (& Jesus’ coming) ? The context of the verse plainly says “the end of the world".


Read 1 John 2:18 NLT

Here is a very interesting verse. John seems to dig an even deeper hole for the New Testament. The claim is made to the little children that “it is the last time". Even that ‘antichrists are now here among us’! Also, “we know that the end of the world has come." He points his statement at the little children, and says that it is the last time (or last hour).


And finally, Romans 13:11-12 commands that now is the time for ‘right living’, because ‘it is late’, and ‘time is running out’. Interesting, being Revelation 22:10-12 says the exact opposite, 10-12, ...for the time is near. Let the one who is doing wrong continue to do wrong; the one who is vile, continue to be vile; the one who is good, continue to do good; and the one who is holy, continue in holiness. See, I am coming soon, and my reward is with me, to repay all according to their deeds."

One passage says that the end is near, CHANGE your behavior and live RIGHTLY. The latter in Revelation says that he was coming soon, so soon that those doing wrong should CONTINUE to do wrong. According to this author, the END is so close that they could now disregard the previous command in Romans to change their ways, and now must accept the fact that it’s SO late, they should NOT even attempt to change their ways.


Romans 16:19-20 NLT
19 ...20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet...

Paul tells the Romans that the God of peace will soon crush Satan under their feet.


These are just some of the many passages that show the disciples listening to Jesus, understanding his message, and proclaiming it to the early churches.


::Other Coming Promises of Jesus
1. What Jesus meant by all those things happening in that generation, including the coming of Christ. In Matthew 16:27-28, Mark 8:38 - 9:1, and Luke 9:26-27, he promises to return before they die.

2. He also told His disciples in Matthew 10:23 KJV, "But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

3. He tells the high priest that he will see him coming back in the clouds. Matt. 26:64, Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. (see also Mark 14:62)

4. Basic Predictions in Revelation
1:1 - "...things which must shortly take place"
2:16 - "Repent, or else I will come to you quickly"
3:11 - "Behold, I come quickly!"
22:6 - "...things which must shortly take place."
22:7 - "Behold, I am coming quickly!"
22:12 - "Behold, I am coming quickly."
22:20 - "Surely I am coming quickly."

5. Revelation Predictions with mello
1:19 - "Write ... the things that are about to take place."
3:10 - "... the hour of trial ... is about to come upon the whole world."
The word mello means about to and on the point of. This word is used in the NT to reinforce something that was about to happen. ie - the spinning top is about to stop moving

6. Read Luke 21:35 & 36 KJV
They were to escape the destruction of the temple and live to see Christ return. Then they would stand before the Son of Man.

7. Luke 21:28, And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
The disciples are told to look up! Hmmm...I wonder what for?

Jesus predicted more than once that he would come within his generation, not a far future one.


::The Context of the Passage
In Luke 17:24-25, We see what generation Christ suffered many things from. We also see what generation rejected him. Clearly, He is speaking of His contemporaries. Notice how some of the translations deal with this verse.
Verse 34 is NOT alone; it is the climax of the last several verses. The entire chapter and all the time references come together and form the prediction that Jesus would return within "this generation". The context allows for NO other interpretation. Matthew 24:34 begins with, "Verily I say unto you.." He wanted to make it clear that no one could misunderstand or misinterpret his words. In verse 35, he even says that his words will outlast the universe! He certainly considered this to be an important statement. His disciples heard, understood, and believed.


::Conclusion
It is UNDISPUTABLE! Jesus said what he meant and meant what he said. The Greek shows this, other versions show this, literal and clear interpretation shows this, reading of parallel passages shows this, studying of other appearances of genea shows this, the Apostles show this in their direct letters to the early churches, the other promises made by Jesus show this, and the context of the verse in Matthew 24 shows this. Jesus promised to return within his generation, not a far future on. There is NO other conclusion!


CASE CLOSED



36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

-Jesus admits that he has not yet been told by his father the exact time. He never gave the exact year, month, day, hour, minute, or second - so what? Jesus cleary gave time limits, figuratively speaking, an "expiration date". Also, if Jesus had no "approximate" idea of when he would return, he should have and would have kept his mouth shut! But this was not the case. Even if he did give an exact time, believers today would probably distort the meaning of the exact time passage(s), too. The exact time is irrelevant. Jesus failed to come back when promised.


37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

-Noah's Flood was within Noah's generation. They lived a little longer back then, according to the Bible, but it still occcured within Noah's liftime. The flood that "Noah" warned everyone about what was due within "Noah's" generation, not in a far future generation thousands of years later. Jesus directly promised his Apostles that, "as the days of Noe were", "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." Therefore, the Second Coming was due within their lifetime as it was with Noah. Note: "Noe" is equivalent to Noah.


40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

-The Apostles were to watch closely, for they knew not what hour their Lord (Jesus) would come for them. If the thief who was going to rob the house was NOT due to come centuries after both house and owner had perished, Jesus' direct advice to to the "goodman of the house" (the Apostles) to "watch" is uselesss and meaningless jargon. Thus, Jesus was not passing them worthless speach, but was warning them of his coming.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

-The Good News Tranlation says, So then, you also must always be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you are not expecting him. The Apostles were to be READY. This urgent statement is sensless if Jesus was not to return within his generation. It has been nearly 2,000 years since Jesus sounded the alarm warning his Apostles (not you or me) about his Second Coming. Looking back, Jesus working up his apostles about his early return makes no sense at all, unless he aniticipated returning within their lifetimes. It is also important to note that Jesus is specifically limiting his statement to the Apostles, and urging them to be ready. If the coming wasn't to happen for thousands of years, he would not be warning THEM. The context of this entire chapter shows that "THEM" were a part "THIS GENERATION."

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

-"Who is the loyal and intelligent servant"? Specifically, Peter was, as recorded earlier in Matthew 16:18,19. Jesus, in this story, tells of a departing master (Jesus) who puts a servant (Peter) in charge of the household (the Church) until his return (within Peters lifetime). Jesus put Peter in charge of governing the church and spreading the gospel quickly before his return. Therefore Jesus, like the master in the parable, expected to be back within Peter's lifetime. In verse 48, Jesus condemns as an "evil servant" he who says "My lord delayeth his coming". Yet, saying anything else shows ignorance of the passages related to the Coming. He has taken 2,000 years. It has been a LONG time! Certainly longer than he and his apostles preached.


49-51

-THE END of Matthew chapter 24.



::The Package Deal
All these other events happened when predicted, what about the Coming?

For example, in Luke 21, verses 1-38 are part of an entire chapter. A package deal - if you will. All these events were to happen with no room for delay: the destruction of Jerusalem, earthquakes, famines, severe persecution, other mentioned signs and events, then to be immediately followed by the return of Jesus within his generation.

Matthew is even more clear:
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Immediately, (NO GAP OF THOUSANDS OF YEARS) Then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds.

It could NOT be more clear.



This commentary sets the stage. In the coming rounds, I will defend my position and attempt to more closely look at other passages related to the Coming. I am anticipating what defense(s) Jason has to bring forth. I must confess that to this day, I have never heard an honest or plausible defense.

Sincerely,
Jon

Jason Gastrich

Dear IIDB, Readers, and Jon,

Thanks to IIDB for hosting this debate and thanks for the readers who are following. I’m happy to debate Jon on this issue. I’ll be answering his assertions and questions in a point by point manner.

First, it is important to note that Jesus did promise to return. However, he did not promise to return within the lifetime of His followers. I’ll show this in my rebuttals and in my closing statement.

As you read our debate, keep in mind the resolution. It is: Jesus Christ promised to return before his generation passed away, not a future generation. Jon is taking the affirmative and I am taking the negative position. When you read Jon’s arguments, ask yourself if they are truly referring to the second coming or not and ask yourself if they are truly good evidence of his case. He tries to apply some verses about various things to the second coming when they don’t mention it or imply it. He has also used a few verses that have little to do with the debate resolution.

Next, it will be good to familiarize yourself with a little bit of Greek. Jon makes a couple of errors regarding word choices that can be understood better by looking at the Greek. If you need to have a Bible with Strong’s numbering to a Greek/Hebrew dictionary and concordance, feel free to use this one: http://bible.jcsm.org/ .

Now, I will begin my rebuttal to Jon’s first round post.


I couldn’t get through Jon’s first page without reading an argument by assertion. Can you prove that the disciples heard wars and rumors of wars? You can’t just assert.


Were they in “divers" places? No.


How about pestilences? How about a nation vs. another nation and a kingdom vs. another kingdom?


How could they be “hated by all nations"? Can you prove this? Can you prove that they were hated by the Chinese?


He just told them that some would die! See verse 9. Therefore, in this very same context, the “end" must be able to refer to death.


Matthew 23:14 uses the Greek words “oykoumene" (world) and “ethnos" (nations). Oykoumene is referring to the entire globe. Ethnos is referring to the entire world.

Romans 10:18 uses the word “ghay" meaning a region when referring to the “earth."

Romans 16:26 actually reads, “but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith." The Greek words for “made known" indicate a declaration and a revelation. They don’t refer to every person literally being told.

In conclusion, you are wrong about the scriptures regarding the world and the nations being told the gospel.


How is the “holy place gone for good"? This is just another argument by assertion. Yes, the temple was destroyed, but it will be rebuilt. There are already plans by groups such as the Temple Mount Faithful to restore the temple and the sacrifices. The garments and tools have been created, the heifers have been found, etc. There is no evidence or rational reason to say that the holy place cannot exist again. I’d like to see the reaction you’d get from a Jew if you said this to them.


Where were these first century signs and wonders? Do you have any evidence that these false Christs in the first century actually showed great signs and wonders and deceived the elect?


Telling someone to listen doesn’t mean that a prophecy will occur soon.


It has already been made clear that Jesus was addressing a future generation. The list of things that had to be accomplished before His return had not been completed in the 1st century. Therefore, we know that verses 32 and 33 weren’t simply directed to His disciples.


“Genea" means “age." See http://www.jcsm.org/StudyCenter/kjvstrongs/STRGRK10.htm#S1074. Strong’s clearly tells us “an age" is a valid definition of “genea." This verse is referring to the church age which was ushered in at Pentecost.

Is there any particular reason you turned to the New English Bible, Today’s English Bible, Moffatt’s Translation, and Weymouth’s Translation? I wouldn’t have thought twice if you used the NKJV, KJV, and NIV. Nonetheless, the Bible is inerrant, but not every translation is inerrant. Not all Bible dictionaries are perfect either.


I’ve already shown you the definition of genea. How Jesus used it most of the time is irrelevant.


These verses don’t mention or imply the second coming of Christ. Here is what Adam Clarke’s commentary says on Romans 13:11.

“Dr. Taylor has given a judicious paraphrase of this and the following verses: “And all the duties of a virtuous and holy life we should the more carefully and zealously perform, considering the nature and shortness of the present season of life; which will convince us that it is now high time to rouse and shake off sleep, and apply with vigilance and vigor to the duties of our Christian life; for that eternal salvation, which is the object of our Christian faith and hope, and the great motive of our religion, is every day nearer to us than when we first entered into the profession of Christianity."


Paul uses the word “we" several times in this passage. Therefore, he can’t be talking only to the Corinthians. This verse is referring to after death. This is why verse 52 says, “the dead will rise incorruptible." Paul is saying that they WILL DIE, so he can’t possibly be implying that Christ would return during their lifetime.


I have a Defender’s Study Bible and it does not say this. Here is what it does say:

“It is significant to note in these relatively early years of his ministry, Paul considered it likely that he, himself, would be living when Christ returned: “We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord," he said.

Of course, I disagree with this commentary. However, I wanted to include it because Jon is incorrect (to put it nicely). This commentary only says that “Paul considered it likely that he would be living when Christ returned." It “confesses" no error.

Adam Clarke’s commentary eloquently answers this question. It reads:

“We which are alive, and remain—By the pronoun we the apostle does not intend himself, and the Thessalonians to whom he was then writing; he is speaking of the genuine Christians which shall be found on earth when Christ comes to judgment. From not considering the manner in which the apostle uses this word, some have been led to suppose that he imagined that the day of judgment would take place in that generation, and while he and the then believers at Thessalonica were in life. But it is impossible that a man, under so direct an influence of the Holy Spirit, should be permitted to make such a mistake: nay, no man in the exercise of his sober reason could have formed such an opinion; there was nothing to warrant the supposition; no premises from which it could be fairly deduced; nor indeed any thing in the circumstances of the Church, nor in the constitution of the world, that could have suggested a hint of the kind. The apostle is speaking of the thing indefinitely as to the time when it shall happen, but positively as to the ORDER that shall be then observed."


James is referring to the coming of the Lord. He is also referring to Him returning very soon. However, he is NOT referring to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

James is telling these people how the Lord will come soon and judge the evildoers. This happened within the lifetime of these people. If you insist that this passage refers to the second coming of Jesus Christ, then tell me why.



John isn’t saying that the second coming will occur during their lifetime. The Greek word used for “hour" or “time" is “hora." It is used many times in the New Testament. See how it is used in Matthew 24.

Matthew 24:34-36 reads, “Assuredly, I say to you, this generation (the church age) will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away. 36But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only."

John is saying that they are in the last age. This correlates with Matthew. They were in the final age called the church age. We are still in that age, today. They had already been through the time or age of the Patriarchs, the age of the Prophets, and they were finishing the age of the Messiah. The last age was beginning and it was called the church age.


Romans 13:11 and 12 reads, “And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. 12The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light."

Paul is referring to the end of their lives. When they died, they enjoyed their salvation and eternal life. He was telling them that they should be obedient to God because they didn’t have that many years left.


Verse 12 doesn’t use the word “soon." It uses the word “quickly." Christ promised to return in the twinkling of an eye.

“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work." This is how the KJV, ASV, and NKJV put it.


This is referring to the circumstance of the recipients of this message. God was going to deliver them from their bondage, soon. However, it doesn’t mention or imply the second coming of Christ.


Matthew 16:26-28 reads, “For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 27For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

Jesus doesn’t promise to return in their lives. However, the promise in 28 is interesting. It refers to John the Revelator who was taken into Heaven and given a vision of the Son of Man coming. We read about this in Revelation. There are likely a couple of other people included in this exhortation; people like Stephen and Peter because they had visions of the Son of Man coming as well.


These are parallel passages to the one in Matthew 16 that I just explained.


This is Jesus’ command to His disciples as He was in His earthly ministry. It was referring to their evangelistic mission and how they could visit all of the cities of Israel before His resurrection. This is when He came. It isn’t referring to the “second coming of Christ."

This was a very pertinent warning. After Christ’s crucifixion, the disciples needed to keep believing, stand strong, and keep preaching. This was Christ’s exhortation to them.


If they will see Jesus sitting on the right hand of God, then how can you say this refers to a prophecy regarding second coming of Christ?


Yes, Jesus’ return will be very quick. However, it won’t be in the 1st century A.D. The word “shortly" is also translated “quickly."


You haven’t given any evidence that either of those verses refer to the second coming of Christ. Things will take place? Hour of trial? If you have one, you need to present your case.


In verse 32, Jesus specific that He is referring to this age - the church age.


Who is Jesus speaking to? How do you know what this verse means without revealing the context? Once again, I’m being forced to make your argument for you, but I won’t.


“This generation" refers to the church age that we are presently in.


“And knew not until the flood came." If these verses are directed toward Jesus’ generation, then why would He say that they would “know not"? He’s telling them! They’re obviously directed toward the future when some people would “know not" His promised return.


Like the last verses, this passage is a great passage for my case as well. Haven’t I been telling you all along that the scriptures say Jesus will come quickly? Two will be in a field, one will be taken, and one will be left. I’d say that’s quick!

<snipped a couple of arguments that were incoherent . . . if you think otherwise, please repost them>

I encourage Jon to do a couple of things.

1. Use spell check
2. Take and understand verses in context - not simply a phrase here or there
3. Explain why your cited verses cannot refer to a future age
4. Study and consider the original language (New Testament Greek)
5. Consult some scholarly articles on this subject
6. Keep in mind the resolution of the debate: “Jesus Christ promised to return before his generation passed away, not a future generation."

Jon has a number of problems with his case. However, if he fails to follow the suggestions above, he’ll surely lose the debate. He has an uphill battle and has offered us no more than a running, opinionated commentary from his limited perspective.

Sincerely,
Jason Gastrich
Jesus Christ Saves Ministries

Hello everyone,

I hope you all have endured thus far reading all of my and Jason's arguments. If you are a Christian, I know that it may seem tempting just to read Jason's posts. But I would encourage you to read this post as well.

This is my first online debate, so I am learning as I go what formats do and don't most effectively get the message across. I will take a very different approach in this post. I hope everyone enjoys it.


We shall see Jason. Notice how he claims this first, instead of critiquing my post and then saying, "Look back, see he made mistakes...." Immediately, Jason wants the believers that are reading to think I made crucial errors, causing them to doubt and skip a fair reading of my posts.


Since Jason doesn't believe the signs were fulfilled within the 1st century, he argues the generation referred to must be a future one. Therefore, the sole intent of this Round 2 post will be to show the signs did occur within the 1st century.

Opening Round 2
I. Signs
Prove that all the signs in Matthew 24 were fulfilled within the 1st century.

Later Rounds
II. Matt. 24:34 & 35
III. A contradiction?
IV. Preterists vs. Futurists



I. Signs

Matt. 24:6
And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.



YES

1) First, notice the Greek word mello. If they didn't hear of wars very shortly, Jesus made a false prediction. Jesus said they were "about to" and were "on the point of" hearing of wars. Are you saying Jesus lied?
2) In your words Jason, "We can't expect the Bible to record every thing that has happened or was said." To keep Jesus' prediction from being false, I suggest you realize they must have heard from others of coming war before Jerusalem was attacked. The city was destroyed in 70 A.D. Would you have us believe that no one mentioned or feared this coming war. Were the apostles not apart of the information circles at the time.
3) Read it in context. Later in 34, Jesus even gives them many tips to avoid the war. Surely the disciples warned others of the soon to come destruction (and relayed Jesus advice to avoid becoming a casualty), and rumours of wars were born instantly. It would have been "the talk of the town!" No doubt, numerous doomsayers were spreading true and false information about this war and others on a regular basis. Unless the disciples lived in a box, they most likely heard of wars and rumours of wars on a daily basis.
4) Perhaps you forget to read verses 1-3. They heard it from Jesus right away. Jesus was the first to fulfill his very prediction by telling them of the coming war.
Thanks to David B. Curtis for 5 & 6:
5) Josephus said, in Antiquities 18:5:3, that Bardanes, and after him Volageses, declared war against Aretas, King of Arabia. But the death of Tiberius prevented war (rumours of war). There were wars in the tributaries of Rome and all over Palestine, Galilee, and Samaria in AD 66, before the destruction of Jerusalem.
6) Among the Jews, the times became turbulent. In Seleucia, 50,000 Jews were killed. There was an uprising against them in Alexandria. In a battle between the Jews and Syrians in Caesarea, 20,000 were killed. During these times, Caligula ordered his statue placed in the temple at Jerusalem. The Jews refused to do this and lived in constant fear that the Emperor's armies would be sent into Palestine. This fear became so real that some of them did not even bother to till their fields.
7) Ten of thousands were killed and many changed their lifestyle and schedules (didn't till fields) because of fear. Wars and rumours of wars sparked this fear.


24:7
For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

INCORRECT, YES

David B. Curtis needs to get the credit for this historical reseach (1-4):
1) Famines: Historians record 30,000 deaths in Rome alone. This famine is mentioned by Tacitus, Suetonius, and Eusebius, and is said to have been severe in Jerusalem. Josephus says that many people perished for want of food. Judea was especially hard hit by famine and the disciples sent aid to them (Acts 11:27-29). Tacitus speaks of a "failure in the crops, and a famine consequent thereupon." Eusebius also mentions famines during this time in Rome, Judea, and Greece. The Bible records famines in Acts 11:27-29, which occurred during the reign of Claudius in 41-54 AD.
2) Pestilences: Famine and pestilence go hand in hand. Pestilence is often caused by famine. Suetonius wrote of "pestilence" at Rome in the days of Nero which was so severe that "within the space of one autumn there died no less than 30,000 persons." Josephus records that pestilences raged in Babylonia in A. D. 40. Tacitus tells of pestilences in Italy in A. D. 65. Yes, there were pestilences in the life time of the disciples in those years leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem.
3) Nation vs. Nation (K vs. K): The word "nation" here is the Greek word ethnos, which means, a race. Also, Jesus was speaking to the disciples, this had to have relevance to them! Did they see nation rising against nation? Yes! Josephus says, "At Caesarea in AD 59 the Jews and Syrians contended about the right to the city, and twenty thousand Jews were slain." At Scythopolis, over 13,000 Jews were killed. Thousands were killed in other places, and at Alexandria 50,000 were killed. At Damascus, 10,000 were killed in an hour's time. Jesus is speaking about the conflicts between Gentiles and Jews, which began to take place shortly after this time, and continued to the beginning of the great Jewish war. For some time previously, Gentiles and Jews had been living for the most part, in peace together, but this period was distinguished by wars.
4) Earthquakes: Did the disciple experience earthquakes in their life time? Yes, they did. Tacitus mentions earthquakes at Rome. He wrote, "Frequent earthquakes occurred, by which many houses were thrown down," and "twelve populous cities of Asia fell in ruins from an earthquake." Seneca, writing in the year 58 A. D., said, "How often have cities of Asia and Achaea fallen with one fatal shock! How many cities have been swallowed up in Syria! How many in Macedonia! How often has Cyprus been wasted by this calamity! How often has Paphos become a ruin! News has often been brought us of the demolition of whole cities at once." In 60 A.D., Hierapous, Colosse, and Laodicea were overthrown from earthquakes. There were earthquakes in Crete, Apamea, Smyrna, Miletus, Chios, Samos, and Judea. Earthquakes in diverse places! History records earthquakes in Crete 46AD, Rome 51AD, Apamaia 53AD, Laodicea 60AD, and Campania 62AD. The Bible records earthquakes in divers places after Jesus' prediction and before 70AD (Mat.27:51; 28:2, Acts 16:26).
5) Divers: means diverse and different. All of these events, based on the Bible and history, occured within Jesus' generation in MANY divers places.


24:9
Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

EASILY, YES

A reading of parallel passage Mark 13 shows that the disciples Jesus was speaking with were only Peter, James, John, and Andrew. All the apostles and followers of Jesus didn't have to die. I will address this later.
1) This is really a silly question. First off, Jesus predicted it. Secondly, the scripture shows that they were hated. Thirdly, history shows that they were hated. You know this.
2) Remember Jason, the Bible can't be expected to record every single event. With such severe persecutation from Jews and Romans, even the hate of Chinese or other peoples would have been the least of their worries. It's not surprising the New Testament doesn't come right out and list off every specific nation that hated them. They didn't have to, they knew they were hated! Jesus said they would be.
3) As for the Chinese, this is as far back as I could find, click here. They were hated after a few centuries, what makes you think they were loved before? Jesus promised they would be hated among all nations (notice he is talking directly to Peter, James, John, and Andrew)! He looked them in the eyes and told them, YOU will be hated among all nations for my names sake. You're ignoring the scripture when it's convenient for you. Ironically, you then create another problem. It's Jason vs. Jesus, and Jason believes they weren't hated among all nations.
YOU=four listening apostles
If the YOU (the four) weren't hated among all nations, Jesus made a false prophecy. Jesus should and would have said, "my followers will be hated for generations to come" or something similiar. He wouldn't have looked at them and said YOU! It did apply to the FOUR, and on a more general level, of course it applied to all the other early followers. Why wouldn't it, they were persecuted before and after he spoke those words.
4) Only parts of the verse that fit your theology are noticed. "Then shall they deliver YOU.." (scripture shows us that the YOU was specifically the four listening apostles, and that they were afflicted, killed, and hated for Jesus' name's sake).
5) The YOU in the beginning of the verse refers to all christ's followers, but was directly targeted at that the four listening apostles. Jason would have us believe that even though they were delivered, afflicted, killed, and hated for Jesus' name, they weren't hated among all nations, also.
Let's look at it:
9 Then shall they deliver (Jason agrees this happened) you up to be afflicted (Jason agrees this happend), and shall kill you (Jason agrees this happened): and ye shall be hated of all nations (Jason would like us to believe that these two words, amongst all these that were fulfilled, did NOT happen) for my name's sake (Jason agrees this happened).
Jason's theological twist: They were delivered, they were afflicted, they were killed, they were hated <snip>among all nations<snip> for my name's sake. Jason's new reading: They were delivered, they were afflicted, they were killed, they were hated for my name's sake.
He is literally "cutting" a piece of scripture out because he doesn't want to except the fact that it was fulfilled within Jesus' generation. Jason says I need to provide evidence that every single nation hated them back then. I can tell him that from all the records I have seen and from the Bible, everyone hated the Christians from the get-go. With a PASSION. He needs to provide evidence that nations didn't hate them. Also, I have shown that all the signs: hear of wars, famines, pestilences, earthquakes, and so forth did in fact occur before 70 AD. This needs to be factored in. Why were all these other signs undeniably fulfilled, except being hated by all nations. We need to ask why should we cut these words out?
6) Again, are we to believe that when Jesus spoke to Peter, James, John, and Andrew face to face, eye to eye, and said "YE shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake", he didn't mean that Peter, James, John, and Andrew (YE) would be hated of all nations for my name's sake. Look at the CONTEXT and ask some questions: What is the setting (time & location)? Time - Nearly 2000 years ago. Location - Ancient Jerusalem, first the temple, then upon the mount of Olives. Who was Jesus speaking with directly (& even privately)? Four Apostles - Peter, James, John, & Andrew. What context is this verse in? Throughout the ENTIRE chapter, Jesus is speaking directly to these four.

Here's a real question: How were they not hated among all nations?


24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

PARTIALLY CORRECT

This passage is not a specific "sign", but it needs to be temporarily addressed.
1) He did just tell them that SOME would die. A couple weeks ago you argued that since one passage said "he" responded and the other said "they" responded (outside of Jericho) the passages weren't contradictory since it didn't say "only he" or "only one." Likewise, this never says "all" would die. That would have been an excellent statement. We wouldn't even be having this debate if Jesus said once, "All of you will die" or "This generation shall pass before all is fulfilled" or "These ARE NOT the days of vengeace, in which all things written will be fulfilled." Anything similiar would suffice! Unfortunately, Jesus never spoke these words, but in fact, the exact opposite.

This passage has nothing to do with being a "sign", but I will most likely discuss it more thoroughly in the coming rounds along with Matt. 24:34.


14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

THANKS FOR PROVING MY POINT

Note: The reference in Jason's post should be Matt 24:14, not 23:14. I also lettered Jason's points.
a) What are you getting at, Jason? Click here to see the verse and crosswalk. By clicking on the underlined words in the verse, you can view the Greek.
b) First off, so what? How is this significant? Also, you left out that it also uses the same word as in Matt. 24:14! Click here to see the verse and study the Greek. You were caught in the act. Romans and Matt. contain the Greek word Oikoumene, which is tranlated into "world" in both passages.
c) Your point seems irrelevant and - well, pointless. Then you say, "They don't refer to every person being told." First, I never said it did. Jason is apparently talking and arguing with himself. David Curtis says it best:

"Remember what we saw in Matthew 24:9. Why would the apostles be hated in all nations if they had not preached the gospel in all nations? They were hated by all nations because they preached in all nations (Acts 17:6; 24:5). Paul declares that the gospel was preached to every creature under heaven (Colossians 1:5-6, 23). In Matthew 24:14, the Greek word for preached is kerusso, it is in the future tense. But in Colossians 1:23 the same word kerusso is in the past tense. Jesus said that it is to be preached and Paul says in AD 62, that it has been preached to every creature. The fact that Colossians was written in 62AD, 8 years before Jerusalem was destroyed, is proof that 70AD was the total fulfillment of this passage!

Paul said that the gospel was made known to all nations (Romans 16:25-26). Paul also said that the faith of the Romans was spoken of throughout the whole world (Rom 1:5,8). We know that Paul traveled through Asia Minor, Greece, and Crete; that he was in Italy, and probably in Spain and Gaul (Rom 15:24-28). During this time the other apostles weren't sitting around idle; all the apostles went abroad and preached the gospel to everyone (Acts 8:1-5,14,25); and there is much proof that within thirty years after this prophecy was spoken, churche