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Helping San Diego, California and beyond since 1997
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| July 12, 2004, 01:35 PM | #1705127 / #1 |
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Moderator--FD&D, FDP
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When did Christ say he would return? -- Jon Promnitz vs.
Jason Gastrich
This thread has been set up for a formal
debate between Jon Promnitz and Jason Gastrich on the
following resolution:
Resolved: Jesus Christ promised to return before his generation passed away, not a future generation. Jon Promnitz will go first, taking the affirmative, and Jason Gastrich will oppose. The debate will have 6 rounds as agreed to from the parameters. A Peanut Gallery is set up in the Biblical Criticism & History forum for the rest of us to comment on the debate. Good luck to both participants! Jason Last edited by Nightshade : August 9, 2004 at 11:21 AM. Reason: typo |
| July 13, 2004, 03:20 PM | #1707507 / #2 |
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Round 1
Hello, I would like to begin by thanking Jason for agreeing to participate in this debate, Nightshade for his moderation, the readers for showing interest, and doubtingthomas for referring me to a helpful website. My name is Jon Promnitz and I will argue that Jesus promised to return before his generation passed away. Note: I did a lot of ‘cutting’ to stay under the limit. Because of this, you will have to look up a few more verses. For this I apologize. Go to crosswalk.com and click on Bible Study Tools. Before continuing, please read Luke 21:1-38 in the KJV and The Goods News Translation. [crosswalk.com has numerous versions and is my main resource for this debate] Commentary and Context of Matthew 24:1-51 KJV Throughout chapter 24, Jesus and his disciples converse directly, even privately. Matthew 24 1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? -The disciples approach Jesus privately, and say, "Tell us..." NOT, "tell them..." Also, the "sign of thy coming and of the end of the world" are linked conjointly. One of the most important aspects when studying scripture is the context and setting of passages. In context, it is clear that Jesus and the disciples are speaking with each other, discussing the end of the world. So far, the reading is set nearly 2000 years ago in Jerusalem. More specifically, the temple and upon the mount of Olives. 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. -Jesus issues a direct WARNING to the disciples, to take affect immediately. Let no man decieve "you". 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. -People pretended to be Christs within Jesus' generation. The disciples did hear of wars and rumours of wars, and the coming war that would result in the temple's destruction. These signs were fulfilled. The word "shall" is translated from the Greek word mello. It means "to be about" or "to be on the point of doing something". 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. -In Matthew 28:2 and Acts 16:26, there were large earthquakes. Acts 11:28 shows that a great famine occurred. These signs were fulfilled. The word "sorrows" was taken from the Greek work odin. It is used in regards to intolerable anguish; "the pain of childbirth." The Good News Translation says in 24:8, All these things are like the first pains of childbirth. A 2000 year gap between the first pains of childbirth and the result of childbirth is a long time. It was DUE - if you will, to happen soon. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. -The persecution was to be very great, which is shown in scripture. In Acts 5:18, the apostles are put in prison. Later in Acts 5:40, they are flogged and ordered to never again speak in the name of Jesus. Paul is stoned in Acts 14:19. These signs were fulfilled. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. -All of these things happened. In 2 Timothy 4:10-15, Demas and Alexander were apostates. They betrayed and did evil unto Paul. Demas' love waxed cold for Paul and the Church, and he chose to love the present world. In 2 Peter 2:1 and 1 John 4:1, followers are warned that false prophets were in the world. These signs were fulfilled. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. -Jesus instructs his disciples to "endure unto the end". Not "endure until you die." If they headed Jesus' warnings, they would have a better chance at being saved from the destruction that was about to come. It is written in Luke 21:22, For THESE be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Read Luke 21:20-28 for the context. Other references are: Heb. 3:6, 14 and Rev. 2:25,26. The "shall be saved" is NOT the 'accept Jesus and instantly have salvation' message pastors exclaim on Sunday moring. But rather being saved from the destruction that was due to take place upon the Earth in "these days of vengeance" immediately before the Second Coming. (see 24:29) 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. -According to scripture, the gospel was preached to all the world before Jesus' generation perished! Paul exclaims this in Romans 10:18, But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. Again in Romans 16:25-26, ...made known to all nations for the obedience of faith... Also see Colossians 1:5-6, 23. The first part was fulfilled. "Then shall the end come" was not. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) -The Good News calls it "The Awful Horror." More importantly, the "holy place" was destroyed in 70 A.D.! This points to a 1st Century era. Christians commonly teach that another temple will be constucted to replace it. One little problem though: People can not randomly build a temple and call it "holy." The "holy place" is gone for good. This event in verse 15 has already happened. 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. -Jesus is souding a warning alarm. Women "with child" will have a tough time protecting themselves from the destruction which is about to befall Jerusalem. For "then", following this destruction, shall be great tribulation. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. -The Good News, verse 22, But God has already reduced the number of days; had he not done so, nobody would survive. For the sake of his chosen people, however, God will reduce the days. God himself has shortened the days, otherwise none would survive the awful battle and the tribulation. Many antichrists came, 1 John 2:18, Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. John knew that the signs had been fulfilled, and he warned "little children" that it was the "last time". Not old timers who could die anytime, but little children that would live and see the return of Jesus. False prophets were seen in 1 John 4:1. These signs were fulfilled. 25 Behold, I have told you before. -The Good News, verse 25, Listen! I have told you this ahead of time. Jesus would not ask these disciples to LISTEN and BEHOLD all these future disasters to remember what he has been warning them throughout the entire chapter. This warning was told to them, for them, explaining events to take place within their present lives. No future generations are in view here. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. -Jesus' coming was to be visible, "as the lightning" comes and shines from both the east and west. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: -The signs and events have already happened in the 1st century, these remaining events were to follow "IMMEDIATELY." There is an unbreakable succession of events. 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. -"Immediately…Then" = First Century. There is no room for random gaps of thousands of years to be inserted. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. -Here is another problem for Preterists. Millions of angels go to the four corners of the earth and gather God's chosen people with the sound of a great trumpet, all unnoticed. 32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. -Jesus directly tells his Apostles "when ye shall see all these things". Jesus does not say, "if ye see..." Likewise, notice the reference to knowing summer is near if spring is already in bloom. Here is another indication of the shortness in his return. It is a parable, seeing the blossoming branch = seeing the signs and events, knowing that summer is nigh = knowing that Jesus was near, even at the doors. Individuals have tryed to distort this clear meaning into something related to Israel in 1948. Jesus even caps off the statement by reminding the disciples how near he really was. He was at their door. Not my door, or Bob's door. Not at our doors now, not at our children's in 100 years, not at our descendant's centuries from now. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. ::The Greek genea Noun Feminine the whole multitude of men living at the same time an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years Easton's Bible Dictionary - Generation - Matt 24:34, "This generation" = the persons then living contemporary with Christ. ::Other Versions New English Bible: "I tell you this: the present generation will live to see it all." Today's English Version: "Remember this! All these things will happen before the people now living have all died." Moffatt's Translation: "I tell you truly, the present generation will not pass away, till all this happens." Weymouth's Translation: "I tell you in solemn truth that the present generation will certainly not pass away until all this has taken place." These translations make it quite clear. The meaning of the word was that of the "present" generation in the time of Christ; not to a future generation thousands of years away. ::Literal and Clear Interpretation The literal and obvious reading is that Jesus promised to return within his generation. When written out, his generation = this generation = the present generation = the people living contemporary with Christ. ::Parallel Passages Mark 13 Good News, 28 "Let the fig tree teach you a lesson. When its branches become green and tender and it starts putting out leaves, you know that summer is near. 29 In the same way, when you see these things happening, you will know that the time is near, ready to begin. 30 Remember that all these things will happen before the people now living have all died. Luke 21 Good News, 31 In the same way, when you see these things happening, you will know that the Kingdom of God is about to come. 32 "Remember that all these things will take place before the people now living have all died. The fig tree was to teach a lesson, not predict Israel becoming a nation in 1948. In context, the chapters speak of destruction, not restoration. "This generation" of "the people now living" was to witness Jesus' return. ::Other Appearances of genea Every time "this generation" is mentioned in the New Testament, it is always spoken by Jesus. See Mat.11:16; 12:41-42, Mark 8:12, Luke 7:31; 11:30-32,50,51; 17:25 In each and every verse, it refers to the generation that was alive during Jesus' time. Other verses Jesus used "generation" in is Mat.12:39,45; 16:4; 17:17, Mark 8:38; 9:19, Luke 1:48,50; 9:41; 11:29; 16:8. These all refer to an age of 30-40 years, and never as an age of 1000's of years. Here are all other uses of the word "generation" (genea) Mat.1:17, Acts 2:40; 8:33; 13:36; 14:16 (times); 15:21 (time), Eph.3:5,21 (Ages…not age. This doesn't conflict with many "generations"), Phil.2:15 (nation), Col.1:26 (generations), and Heb.3:10. In context, its clear what the word "generation" means in these passages. ::The Understanding of the Apostles The view of the Apostles is central to this debate. They had no trouble understading and accepting the promise of Jesus. What did the disciples preach about the Second Coming? Read Romans 13:11-12 NLT Paul is urging the early Roman Christians to realize how ‘late’ it is, and that ‘time is running out’. The day of Jesus’ return will ‘soon be here’. “Another reason for RIGHT living…" The End was so close that Paul argued that the Romans should live RIGHTLY. It can only be said that time was NOT running out, NOR was the day at hand. Read 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 NLT Paul is writing to the church in Corinth. This message was intended directly for them and it states that not all of them will die, but will be changed. Of course, they all died many years ago without being changed or experiencing the last trump. Paul says “We shall not sleep". The ‘We’ includes Paul. It says, "at the last trump." Not, "after we die." Read 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 NLT Paul is writing to the church of Thessalonica in this ancient letter and he makes it perfectly clear he is telling them DIRECTLY from the Lord. Saying, “We who are still living when the Lord returns..." Somewhat strange, being that the Lord hasn’t returned and all those who were addressed DIRECTLY by God through Paul have been deceased for quite sometime. The Thessalonians were directly addressed, not Christians living 200 nor 2000 years later. “We who are still alive and remain…" were supposed to be caught up in the clouds. Even my Defender’s Study Bible confesses in the concordance that Paul errantly believed and taught the early return of Christ to the Thessalonians. Read James 5:7-9 NLT James was thought to have been an acknowledged leader of the Jerusalem church. James tells his followers, “brother and sisters", that ‘the judge is standing at the door’. They were told to “..be patient as you wait for the Lord’s return." They were not told to “..be patient as you wait for your death to approach.." Why should they be patiently waiting for the Lord’s return? “Don’t grumble, for look, he is at the door". How long does this door take to open? 1 Peter 4:7 NLT The end of the world is coming soon. Therefore, be earnest and disciplined in your prayers. It is assumed Simon Peter wrote the books of 1 and 2 Peter and that they were intended to spread the gospel message to what is now considered Turkey. In his message, he speaks of ‘the end of all things’ and ‘the end of the world’ coming soon. In the KJV, it says “be sober and watch unto prayer". WATCH for what!? Their inevitable deaths, or the end of all things (& Jesus’ coming) ? The context of the verse plainly says “the end of the world". Read 1 John 2:18 NLT Here is a very interesting verse. John seems to dig an even deeper hole for the New Testament. The claim is made to the little children that “it is the last time". Even that ‘antichrists are now here among us’! Also, “we know that the end of the world has come." He points his statement at the little children, and says that it is the last time (or last hour). And finally, Romans 13:11-12 commands that now is the time for ‘right living’, because ‘it is late’, and ‘time is running out’. Interesting, being Revelation 22:10-12 says the exact opposite, 10-12, ...for the time is near. Let the one who is doing wrong continue to do wrong; the one who is vile, continue to be vile; the one who is good, continue to do good; and the one who is holy, continue in holiness. See, I am coming soon, and my reward is with me, to repay all according to their deeds." One passage says that the end is near, CHANGE your behavior and live RIGHTLY. The latter in Revelation says that he was coming soon, so soon that those doing wrong should CONTINUE to do wrong. According to this author, the END is so close that they could now disregard the previous command in Romans to change their ways, and now must accept the fact that it’s SO late, they should NOT even attempt to change their ways. Romans 16:19-20 NLT 19 ...20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet... Paul tells the Romans that the God of peace will soon crush Satan under their feet. These are just some of the many passages that show the disciples listening to Jesus, understanding his message, and proclaiming it to the early churches. ::Other Coming Promises of Jesus 1. What Jesus meant by all those things happening in that generation, including the coming of Christ. In Matthew 16:27-28, Mark 8:38 - 9:1, and Luke 9:26-27, he promises to return before they die. 2. He also told His disciples in Matthew 10:23 KJV, "But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. 3. He tells the high priest that he will see him coming back in the clouds. Matt. 26:64, Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. (see also Mark 14:62) 4. Basic Predictions in Revelation 1:1 - "...things which must shortly take place" 2:16 - "Repent, or else I will come to you quickly" 3:11 - "Behold, I come quickly!" 22:6 - "...things which must shortly take place." 22:7 - "Behold, I am coming quickly!" 22:12 - "Behold, I am coming quickly." 22:20 - "Surely I am coming quickly." 5. Revelation Predictions with mello 1:19 - "Write ... the things that are about to take place." 3:10 - "... the hour of trial ... is about to come upon the whole world." The word mello means about to and on the point of. This word is used in the NT to reinforce something that was about to happen. ie - the spinning top is about to stop moving 6. Read Luke 21:35 & 36 KJV They were to escape the destruction of the temple and live to see Christ return. Then they would stand before the Son of Man. 7. Luke 21:28, And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. The disciples are told to look up! Hmmm...I wonder what for? Jesus predicted more than once that he would come within his generation, not a far future one. ::The Context of the Passage In Luke 17:24-25, We see what generation Christ suffered many things from. We also see what generation rejected him. Clearly, He is speaking of His contemporaries. Notice how some of the translations deal with this verse. Verse 34 is NOT alone; it is the climax of the last several verses. The entire chapter and all the time references come together and form the prediction that Jesus would return within "this generation". The context allows for NO other interpretation. Matthew 24:34 begins with, "Verily I say unto you.." He wanted to make it clear that no one could misunderstand or misinterpret his words. In verse 35, he even says that his words will outlast the universe! He certainly considered this to be an important statement. His disciples heard, understood, and believed. ::Conclusion It is UNDISPUTABLE! Jesus said what he meant and meant what he said. The Greek shows this, other versions show this, literal and clear interpretation shows this, reading of parallel passages shows this, studying of other appearances of genea shows this, the Apostles show this in their direct letters to the early churches, the other promises made by Jesus show this, and the context of the verse in Matthew 24 shows this. Jesus promised to return within his generation, not a far future on. There is NO other conclusion! CASE CLOSED 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. -Jesus admits that he has not yet been told by his father the exact time. He never gave the exact year, month, day, hour, minute, or second - so what? Jesus cleary gave time limits, figuratively speaking, an "expiration date". Also, if Jesus had no "approximate" idea of when he would return, he should have and would have kept his mouth shut! But this was not the case. Even if he did give an exact time, believers today would probably distort the meaning of the exact time passage(s), too. The exact time is irrelevant. Jesus failed to come back when promised. 37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. -Noah's Flood was within Noah's generation. They lived a little longer back then, according to the Bible, but it still occcured within Noah's liftime. The flood that "Noah" warned everyone about what was due within "Noah's" generation, not in a far future generation thousands of years later. Jesus directly promised his Apostles that, "as the days of Noe were", "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." Therefore, the Second Coming was due within their lifetime as it was with Noah. Note: "Noe" is equivalent to Noah. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. -The Apostles were to watch closely, for they knew not what hour their Lord (Jesus) would come for them. If the thief who was going to rob the house was NOT due to come centuries after both house and owner had perished, Jesus' direct advice to to the "goodman of the house" (the Apostles) to "watch" is uselesss and meaningless jargon. Thus, Jesus was not passing them worthless speach, but was warning them of his coming. 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. -The Good News Tranlation says, So then, you also must always be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you are not expecting him. The Apostles were to be READY. This urgent statement is sensless if Jesus was not to return within his generation. It has been nearly 2,000 years since Jesus sounded the alarm warning his Apostles (not you or me) about his Second Coming. Looking back, Jesus working up his apostles about his early return makes no sense at all, unless he aniticipated returning within their lifetimes. It is also important to note that Jesus is specifically limiting his statement to the Apostles, and urging them to be ready. If the coming wasn't to happen for thousands of years, he would not be warning THEM. The context of this entire chapter shows that "THEM" were a part "THIS GENERATION." 45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; -"Who is the loyal and intelligent servant"? Specifically, Peter was, as recorded earlier in Matthew 16:18,19. Jesus, in this story, tells of a departing master (Jesus) who puts a servant (Peter) in charge of the household (the Church) until his return (within Peters lifetime). Jesus put Peter in charge of governing the church and spreading the gospel quickly before his return. Therefore Jesus, like the master in the parable, expected to be back within Peter's lifetime. In verse 48, Jesus condemns as an "evil servant" he who says "My lord delayeth his coming". Yet, saying anything else shows ignorance of the passages related to the Coming. He has taken 2,000 years. It has been a LONG time! Certainly longer than he and his apostles preached. 49-51 -THE END of Matthew chapter 24. ::The Package Deal All these other events happened when predicted, what about the Coming? For example, in Luke 21, verses 1-38 are part of an entire chapter. A package deal - if you will. All these events were to happen with no room for delay: the destruction of Jerusalem, earthquakes, famines, severe persecution, other mentioned signs and events, then to be immediately followed by the return of Jesus within his generation. Matthew is even more clear: Matthew 24 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Immediately, (NO GAP OF THOUSANDS OF YEARS) Then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds. It could NOT be more clear. This commentary sets the stage. In the coming rounds, I will defend my position and attempt to more closely look at other passages related to the Coming. I am anticipating what defense(s) Jason has to bring forth. I must confess that to this day, I have never heard an honest or plausible defense. Sincerely, Jon |
| July 23, 2004, 03:11 PM | #1729080 / #3 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Round 1
Dear IIDB, Readers, and Jon,
Thanks to IIDB for hosting this debate and thanks for the readers who are following. I’m happy to debate Jon on this issue. I’ll be answering his assertions and questions in a point by point manner. First, it is important to note that Jesus did promise to return. However, he did not promise to return within the lifetime of His followers. I’ll show this in my rebuttals and in my closing statement. As you read our debate, keep in mind the resolution. It is: Jesus Christ promised to return before his generation passed away, not a future generation. Jon is taking the affirmative and I am taking the negative position. When you read Jon’s arguments, ask yourself if they are truly referring to the second coming or not and ask yourself if they are truly good evidence of his case. He tries to apply some verses about various things to the second coming when they don’t mention it or imply it. He has also used a few verses that have little to do with the debate resolution. Next, it will be good to familiarize yourself with a little bit of Greek. Jon makes a couple of errors regarding word choices that can be understood better by looking at the Greek. If you need to have a Bible with Strong’s numbering to a Greek/Hebrew dictionary and concordance, feel free to use this one: http://bible.jcsm.org/ . Now, I will begin my rebuttal to Jon’s first round post. Quote:
I couldn’t get through Jon’s first page without reading an argument by assertion. Can you prove that the disciples heard wars and rumors of wars? You can’t just assert. Quote:
Were they in “divers" places? No. Quote:
How about pestilences? How about a nation vs. another nation and a kingdom vs. another kingdom? Quote:
How could they be “hated by all nations"? Can you prove this? Can you prove that they were hated by the Chinese? Quote:
He just told them that some would die! See verse 9. Therefore, in this very same context, the “end" must be able to refer to death. Quote:
Matthew 23:14 uses the Greek words “oykoumene" (world) and “ethnos" (nations). Oykoumene is referring to the entire globe. Ethnos is referring to the entire world. Romans 10:18 uses the word “ghay" meaning a region when referring to the “earth." Romans 16:26 actually reads, “but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith." The Greek words for “made known" indicate a declaration and a revelation. They don’t refer to every person literally being told. In conclusion, you are wrong about the scriptures regarding the world and the nations being told the gospel. Quote:
How is the “holy place gone for good"? This is just another argument by assertion. Yes, the temple was destroyed, but it will be rebuilt. There are already plans by groups such as the Temple Mount Faithful to restore the temple and the sacrifices. The garments and tools have been created, the heifers have been found, etc. There is no evidence or rational reason to say that the holy place cannot exist again. I’d like to see the reaction you’d get from a Jew if you said this to them. Quote:
Where were these first century signs and wonders? Do you have any evidence that these false Christs in the first century actually showed great signs and wonders and deceived the elect? Quote:
Telling someone to listen doesn’t mean that a prophecy will occur soon. Quote:
It has already been made clear that Jesus was addressing a future generation. The list of things that had to be accomplished before His return had not been completed in the 1st century. Therefore, we know that verses 32 and 33 weren’t simply directed to His disciples. Quote:
“Genea" means “age." See http://www.jcsm.org/StudyCenter/kjvstrongs/STRGRK10.htm#S1074. Strong’s clearly tells us “an age" is a valid definition of “genea." This verse is referring to the church age which was ushered in at Pentecost. Is there any particular reason you turned to the New English Bible, Today’s English Bible, Moffatt’s Translation, and Weymouth’s Translation? I wouldn’t have thought twice if you used the NKJV, KJV, and NIV. Nonetheless, the Bible is inerrant, but not every translation is inerrant. Not all Bible dictionaries are perfect either. Quote:
I’ve already shown you the definition of genea. How Jesus used it most of the time is irrelevant. Quote:
These verses don’t mention or imply the second coming of Christ. Here is what Adam Clarke’s commentary says on Romans 13:11. “Dr. Taylor has given a judicious paraphrase of this and the following verses: “And all the duties of a virtuous and holy life we should the more carefully and zealously perform, considering the nature and shortness of the present season of life; which will convince us that it is now high time to rouse and shake off sleep, and apply with vigilance and vigor to the duties of our Christian life; for that eternal salvation, which is the object of our Christian faith and hope, and the great motive of our religion, is every day nearer to us than when we first entered into the profession of Christianity." Quote:
Paul uses the word “we" several times in this passage. Therefore, he can’t be talking only to the Corinthians. This verse is referring to after death. This is why verse 52 says, “the dead will rise incorruptible." Paul is saying that they WILL DIE, so he can’t possibly be implying that Christ would return during their lifetime. Quote:
I have a Defender’s Study Bible and it does not say this. Here is what it does say: “It is significant to note in these relatively early years of his ministry, Paul considered it likely that he, himself, would be living when Christ returned: “We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord," he said. Of course, I disagree with this commentary. However, I wanted to include it because Jon is incorrect (to put it nicely). This commentary only says that “Paul considered it likely that he would be living when Christ returned." It “confesses" no error. Adam Clarke’s commentary eloquently answers this question. It reads: “We which are alive, and remain—By the pronoun we the apostle does not intend himself, and the Thessalonians to whom he was then writing; he is speaking of the genuine Christians which shall be found on earth when Christ comes to judgment. From not considering the manner in which the apostle uses this word, some have been led to suppose that he imagined that the day of judgment would take place in that generation, and while he and the then believers at Thessalonica were in life. But it is impossible that a man, under so direct an influence of the Holy Spirit, should be permitted to make such a mistake: nay, no man in the exercise of his sober reason could have formed such an opinion; there was nothing to warrant the supposition; no premises from which it could be fairly deduced; nor indeed any thing in the circumstances of the Church, nor in the constitution of the world, that could have suggested a hint of the kind. The apostle is speaking of the thing indefinitely as to the time when it shall happen, but positively as to the ORDER that shall be then observed." Quote:
James is referring to the coming of the Lord. He is also referring to Him returning very soon. However, he is NOT referring to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. James is telling these people how the Lord will come soon and judge the evildoers. This happened within the lifetime of these people. If you insist that this passage refers to the second coming of Jesus Christ, then tell me why. Quote:
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John isn’t saying that the second coming will occur during their lifetime. The Greek word used for “hour" or “time" is “hora." It is used many times in the New Testament. See how it is used in Matthew 24. Matthew 24:34-36 reads, “Assuredly, I say to you, this generation (the church age) will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away. 36But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only." John is saying that they are in the last age. This correlates with Matthew. They were in the final age called the church age. We are still in that age, today. They had already been through the time or age of the Patriarchs, the age of the Prophets, and they were finishing the age of the Messiah. The last age was beginning and it was called the church age. Quote:
Romans 13:11 and 12 reads, “And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. 12The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light." Paul is referring to the end of their lives. When they died, they enjoyed their salvation and eternal life. He was telling them that they should be obedient to God because they didn’t have that many years left. Quote:
Verse 12 doesn’t use the word “soon." It uses the word “quickly." Christ promised to return in the twinkling of an eye. “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work." This is how the KJV, ASV, and NKJV put it. Quote:
This is referring to the circumstance of the recipients of this message. God was going to deliver them from their bondage, soon. However, it doesn’t mention or imply the second coming of Christ. Quote:
Matthew 16:26-28 reads, “For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 27For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Jesus doesn’t promise to return in their lives. However, the promise in 28 is interesting. It refers to John the Revelator who was taken into Heaven and given a vision of the Son of Man coming. We read about this in Revelation. There are likely a couple of other people included in this exhortation; people like Stephen and Peter because they had visions of the Son of Man coming as well. Quote:
These are parallel passages to the one in Matthew 16 that I just explained. Quote:
This is Jesus’ command to His disciples as He was in His earthly ministry. It was referring to their evangelistic mission and how they could visit all of the cities of Israel before His resurrection. This is when He came. It isn’t referring to the “second coming of Christ." This was a very pertinent warning. After Christ’s crucifixion, the disciples needed to keep believing, stand strong, and keep preaching. This was Christ’s exhortation to them. Quote:
If they will see Jesus sitting on the right hand of God, then how can you say this refers to a prophecy regarding second coming of Christ? Quote:
Yes, Jesus’ return will be very quick. However, it won’t be in the 1st century A.D. The word “shortly" is also translated “quickly." Quote:
You haven’t given any evidence that either of those verses refer to the second coming of Christ. Things will take place? Hour of trial? If you have one, you need to present your case. Quote:
In verse 32, Jesus specific that He is referring to this age - the church age. Quote:
Who is Jesus speaking to? How do you know what this verse means without revealing the context? Once again, I’m being forced to make your argument for you, but I won’t. Quote:
“This generation" refers to the church age that we are presently in. Quote:
“And knew not until the flood came." If these verses are directed toward Jesus’ generation, then why would He say that they would “know not"? He’s telling them! They’re obviously directed toward the future when some people would “know not" His promised return. Quote:
Like the last verses, this passage is a great passage for my case as well. Haven’t I been telling you all along that the scriptures say Jesus will come quickly? Two will be in a field, one will be taken, and one will be left. I’d say that’s quick! <snipped a couple of arguments that were incoherent . . . if you think otherwise, please repost them> I encourage Jon to do a couple of things. 1. Use spell check 2. Take and understand verses in context - not simply a phrase here or there 3. Explain why your cited verses cannot refer to a future age 4. Study and consider the original language (New Testament Greek) 5. Consult some scholarly articles on this subject 6. Keep in mind the resolution of the debate: “Jesus Christ promised to return before his generation passed away, not a future generation." Jon has a number of problems with his case. However, if he fails to follow the suggestions above, he’ll surely lose the debate. He has an uphill battle and has offered us no more than a running, opinionated commentary from his limited perspective. Sincerely, Jason Gastrich Jesus Christ Saves Ministries Last edited by Nightshade : July 23, 2004 at 06:13 PM. Reason: fixed VBB tags | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| July 29, 2004, 01:36 PM | #1741090 / #4 | ||||||||||||||||
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Round 2
Hello everyone, I hope you all have endured thus far reading all of my and Jason's arguments. If you are a Christian, I know that it may seem tempting just to read Jason's posts. But I would encourage you to read this post as well. This is my first online debate, so I am learning as I go what formats do and don't most effectively get the message across. I will take a very different approach in this post. I hope everyone enjoys it. Quote:
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Opening Round 2 I. Signs Prove that all the signs in Matthew 24 were fulfilled within the 1st century. Later Rounds II. Matt. 24:34 & 35 III. A contradiction? IV. Preterists vs. Futurists I. Signs Matt. 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. Quote:
YES 1) First, notice the Greek word mello. If they didn't hear of wars very shortly, Jesus made a false prediction. Jesus said they were "about to" and were "on the point of" hearing of wars. Are you saying Jesus lied? 2) In your words Jason, "We can't expect the Bible to record every thing that has happened or was said." To keep Jesus' prediction from being false, I suggest you realize they must have heard from others of coming war before Jerusalem was attacked. The city was destroyed in 70 A.D. Would you have us believe that no one mentioned or feared this coming war. Were the apostles not apart of the information circles at the time. 3) Read it in context. Later in 34, Jesus even gives them many tips to avoid the war. Surely the disciples warned others of the soon to come destruction (and relayed Jesus advice to avoid becoming a casualty), and rumours of wars were born instantly. It would have been "the talk of the town!" No doubt, numerous doomsayers were spreading true and false information about this war and others on a regular basis. Unless the disciples lived in a box, they most likely heard of wars and rumours of wars on a daily basis. 4) Perhaps you forget to read verses 1-3. They heard it from Jesus right away. Jesus was the first to fulfill his very prediction by telling them of the coming war. Thanks to David B. Curtis for 5 & 6: 5) Josephus said, in Antiquities 18:5:3, that Bardanes, and after him Volageses, declared war against Aretas, King of Arabia. But the death of Tiberius prevented war (rumours of war). There were wars in the tributaries of Rome and all over Palestine, Galilee, and Samaria in AD 66, before the destruction of Jerusalem. 6) Among the Jews, the times became turbulent. In Seleucia, 50,000 Jews were killed. There was an uprising against them in Alexandria. In a battle between the Jews and Syrians in Caesarea, 20,000 were killed. During these times, Caligula ordered his statue placed in the temple at Jerusalem. The Jews refused to do this and lived in constant fear that the Emperor's armies would be sent into Palestine. This fear became so real that some of them did not even bother to till their fields. 7) Ten of thousands were killed and many changed their lifestyle and schedules (didn't till fields) because of fear. Wars and rumours of wars sparked this fear. 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. Quote:
INCORRECT, YES David B. Curtis needs to get the credit for this historical reseach (1-4): 1) Famines: Historians record 30,000 deaths in Rome alone. This famine is mentioned by Tacitus, Suetonius, and Eusebius, and is said to have been severe in Jerusalem. Josephus says that many people perished for want of food. Judea was especially hard hit by famine and the disciples sent aid to them (Acts 11:27-29). Tacitus speaks of a "failure in the crops, and a famine consequent thereupon." Eusebius also mentions famines during this time in Rome, Judea, and Greece. The Bible records famines in Acts 11:27-29, which occurred during the reign of Claudius in 41-54 AD. 2) Pestilences: Famine and pestilence go hand in hand. Pestilence is often caused by famine. Suetonius wrote of "pestilence" at Rome in the days of Nero which was so severe that "within the space of one autumn there died no less than 30,000 persons." Josephus records that pestilences raged in Babylonia in A. D. 40. Tacitus tells of pestilences in Italy in A. D. 65. Yes, there were pestilences in the life time of the disciples in those years leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem. 3) Nation vs. Nation (K vs. K): The word "nation" here is the Greek word ethnos, which means, a race. Also, Jesus was speaking to the disciples, this had to have relevance to them! Did they see nation rising against nation? Yes! Josephus says, "At Caesarea in AD 59 the Jews and Syrians contended about the right to the city, and twenty thousand Jews were slain." At Scythopolis, over 13,000 Jews were killed. Thousands were killed in other places, and at Alexandria 50,000 were killed. At Damascus, 10,000 were killed in an hour's time. Jesus is speaking about the conflicts between Gentiles and Jews, which began to take place shortly after this time, and continued to the beginning of the great Jewish war. For some time previously, Gentiles and Jews had been living for the most part, in peace together, but this period was distinguished by wars. 4) Earthquakes: Did the disciple experience earthquakes in their life time? Yes, they did. Tacitus mentions earthquakes at Rome. He wrote, "Frequent earthquakes occurred, by which many houses were thrown down," and "twelve populous cities of Asia fell in ruins from an earthquake." Seneca, writing in the year 58 A. D., said, "How often have cities of Asia and Achaea fallen with one fatal shock! How many cities have been swallowed up in Syria! How many in Macedonia! How often has Cyprus been wasted by this calamity! How often has Paphos become a ruin! News has often been brought us of the demolition of whole cities at once." In 60 A.D., Hierapous, Colosse, and Laodicea were overthrown from earthquakes. There were earthquakes in Crete, Apamea, Smyrna, Miletus, Chios, Samos, and Judea. Earthquakes in diverse places! History records earthquakes in Crete 46AD, Rome 51AD, Apamaia 53AD, Laodicea 60AD, and Campania 62AD. The Bible records earthquakes in divers places after Jesus' prediction and before 70AD (Mat.27:51; 28:2, Acts 16:26). 5) Divers: means diverse and different. All of these events, based on the Bible and history, occured within Jesus' generation in MANY divers places. 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. Quote:
EASILY, YES A reading of parallel passage Mark 13 shows that the disciples Jesus was speaking with were only Peter, James, John, and Andrew. All the apostles and followers of Jesus didn't have to die. I will address this later. 1) This is really a silly question. First off, Jesus predicted it. Secondly, the scripture shows that they were hated. Thirdly, history shows that they were hated. You know this. 2) Remember Jason, the Bible can't be expected to record every single event. With such severe persecutation from Jews and Romans, even the hate of Chinese or other peoples would have been the least of their worries. It's not surprising the New Testament doesn't come right out and list off every specific nation that hated them. They didn't have to, they knew they were hated! Jesus said they would be. 3) As for the Chinese, this is as far back as I could find, click here. They were hated after a few centuries, what makes you think they were loved before? Jesus promised they would be hated among all nations (notice he is talking directly to Peter, James, John, and Andrew)! He looked them in the eyes and told them, YOU will be hated among all nations for my names sake. You're ignoring the scripture when it's convenient for you. Ironically, you then create another problem. It's Jason vs. Jesus, and Jason believes they weren't hated among all nations. YOU=four listening apostles If the YOU (the four) weren't hated among all nations, Jesus made a false prophecy. Jesus should and would have said, "my followers will be hated for generations to come" or something similiar. He wouldn't have looked at them and said YOU! It did apply to the FOUR, and on a more general level, of course it applied to all the other early followers. Why wouldn't it, they were persecuted before and after he spoke those words. 4) Only parts of the verse that fit your theology are noticed. "Then shall they deliver YOU.." (scripture shows us that the YOU was specifically the four listening apostles, and that they were afflicted, killed, and hated for Jesus' name's sake). 5) The YOU in the beginning of the verse refers to all christ's followers, but was directly targeted at that the four listening apostles. Jason would have us believe that even though they were delivered, afflicted, killed, and hated for Jesus' name, they weren't hated among all nations, also. Let's look at it: 9 Then shall they deliver (Jason agrees this happened) you up to be afflicted (Jason agrees this happend), and shall kill you (Jason agrees this happened): and ye shall be hated of all nations (Jason would like us to believe that these two words, amongst all these that were fulfilled, did NOT happen) for my name's sake (Jason agrees this happened). Jason's theological twist: They were delivered, they were afflicted, they were killed, they were hated <snip>among all nations<snip> for my name's sake. Jason's new reading: They were delivered, they were afflicted, they were killed, they were hated for my name's sake. He is literally "cutting" a piece of scripture out because he doesn't want to except the fact that it was fulfilled within Jesus' generation. Jason says I need to provide evidence that every single nation hated them back then. I can tell him that from all the records I have seen and from the Bible, everyone hated the Christians from the get-go. With a PASSION. He needs to provide evidence that nations didn't hate them. Also, I have shown that all the signs: hear of wars, famines, pestilences, earthquakes, and so forth did in fact occur before 70 AD. This needs to be factored in. Why were all these other signs undeniably fulfilled, except being hated by all nations. We need to ask why should we cut these words out? 6) Again, are we to believe that when Jesus spoke to Peter, James, John, and Andrew face to face, eye to eye, and said "YE shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake", he didn't mean that Peter, James, John, and Andrew (YE) would be hated of all nations for my name's sake. Look at the CONTEXT and ask some questions: What is the setting (time & location)? Time - Nearly 2000 years ago. Location - Ancient Jerusalem, first the temple, then upon the mount of Olives. Who was Jesus speaking with directly (& even privately)? Four Apostles - Peter, James, John, & Andrew. What context is this verse in? Throughout the ENTIRE chapter, Jesus is speaking directly to these four. Here's a real question: How were they not hated among all nations? 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Quote:
PARTIALLY CORRECT This passage is not a specific "sign", but it needs to be temporarily addressed. 1) He did just tell them that SOME would die. A couple weeks ago you argued that since one passage said "he" responded and the other said "they" responded (outside of Jericho) the passages weren't contradictory since it didn't say "only he" or "only one." Likewise, this never says "all" would die. That would have been an excellent statement. We wouldn't even be having this debate if Jesus said once, "All of you will die" or "This generation shall pass before all is fulfilled" or "These ARE NOT the days of vengeace, in which all things written will be fulfilled." Anything similiar would suffice! Unfortunately, Jesus never spoke these words, but in fact, the exact opposite. This passage has nothing to do with being a "sign", but I will most likely discuss it more thoroughly in the coming rounds along with Matt. 24:34. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Quote:
THANKS FOR PROVING MY POINT Note: The reference in Jason's post should be Matt 24:14, not 23:14. I also lettered Jason's points. a) What are you getting at, Jason? Click here to see the verse and crosswalk. By clicking on the underlined words in the verse, you can view the Greek. b) First off, so what? How is this significant? Also, you left out that it also uses the same word as in Matt. 24:14! Click here to see the verse and study the Greek. You were caught in the act. Romans and Matt. contain the Greek word Oikoumene, which is tranlated into "world" in both passages. c) Your point seems irrelevant and - well, pointless. Then you say, "They don't refer to every person being told." First, I never said it did. Jason is apparently talking and arguing with himself. David Curtis says it best: "Remember what we saw in Matthew 24:9. Why would the apostles be hated in all nations if they had not preached the gospel in all nations? They were hated by all nations because they preached in all nations (Acts 17:6; 24:5). Paul declares that the gospel was preached to every creature under heaven (Colossians 1:5-6, 23). In Matthew 24:14, the Greek word for preached is kerusso, it is in the future tense. But in Colossians 1:23 the same word kerusso is in the past tense. Jesus said that it is to be preached and Paul says in AD 62, that it has been preached to every creature. The fact that Colossians was written in 62AD, 8 years before Jerusalem was destroyed, is proof that 70AD was the total fulfillment of this passage! Paul said that the gospel was made known to all nations (Romans 16:25-26). Paul also said that the faith of the Romans was spoken of throughout the whole world (Rom 1:5,8). We know that Paul traveled through Asia Minor, Greece, and Crete; that he was in Italy, and probably in Spain and Gaul (Rom 15:24-28). During this time the other apostles weren't sitting around idle; all the apostles went abroad and preached the gospel to everyone (Acts 8:1-5,14,25); and there is much proof that within thirty years after this prophecy was spoken, churches were established in all these regions (Acts 9:31). The following verses all fulfill Acts 1:8. Men from every nation heard Peter preach the gospel (Acts 2:5,9-11,14); and Peter said it was published throughout Judaea (Acts 10:37, 1 Pet.4:6). Paul says he fully preached the gospel (Romans 15:19; 16:19), and it appeared to all men (Titus 2:11.), and it was preached and believed on in the world (1 Timothy 3:16). In Romans 10:18, the word "world" is oikumene, same as Mat.24:24, and the word "earth" is ge, same as Acts 1:8. In Romans 16:25-26, the word "nations" is ethnos, same as Mark 13:10. In Colossians 1:6, the word "world" is kosmos, same as Mark 16:15. In Colossians 1:23, the word "creature" is ktisis, same as Mark 16:15. Hebrews 4:2 says the gospel was preached. Many today say that the gospel has not been preached to all the world and Matthew 24:14 has not yet been fulfilled. The Bible says that all the nations of the world heard the gospel preached before AD 70. Who are you going to believe? To deny that Matthew 24:14 has been fulfilled is to deny the clear statements of God's Holy Word; it is to call God a liar." d) Au contraire! 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) Quote:
LET'S STUDY THIS ABOMINATION 1) The Greek words for "holy" is Hagios. It means: most holy thing. The "holy" place has been destroyed. Jason seems to have a dilemma if this event is meant for the future, it must be reconstructed so this event can 'happen.' What makes it truly "holy." Perhaps next week, a Jew (average or high rabbi) decides to construct a 10feet x 10ft x 10ft building on (or near) the former temple's location, decorates it with gold, puts some of these recovered and restored items in it, and blesses it (or whatever). Can we really call it "holy." 2) Here is the best solution: The event already happened, and this view is supported by scripture. A question comes to mind: What was the "Abomination of Desolation?" Excerpt from David Curtis' article; Mark says, "standing where it ought not," meaning the same thing. But Luke really clears it up for us. Luke 21:20 (NKJV) "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near." By reading the surrounding verses, you cannot deny that this is a parallel account to Matthew's Olivet Discourse. Parallel accounts cannot have a different meaning. By combining Luke's statement with secular history, it is clear that Cestius Gallus and his Roman army were the abomination of desolation. It was fulfilled in A.D.66 when the Romans surrounded the city of Jerusalem. Chrysostom wrote: "For this it seems to me that the abomination of desolation means the army by which the holy city of Jerusalem was made desolate." (The Ante-Nicene Fathers) Augustine wrote: (379) "Luke to show that the abomination spoken of by Daniel will take place when Jerusalem is captured, recalls these words of the Lord in the same context: When you shall see Jerusalem compassed about with an army, then know that the desolation thereof is at hand (xxi. 20). For Luke very clearly bears witness that the prophecy of Daniel was fulfilled when Jerusalem was overthrown." (vol. 6, p. 170) 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Quote:
YES 1) Many antichrists came, 1 John 2:18, Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. John knew that the signs had been fulfilled, and he warned "little children" that it was the "last time". Not old timers who could die anytime, but little children that would live and see the coming of Jesus. False prophets were seen in 1 John 4:1. I don't expect the Bible (fact or fiction) to record data about every false prophet. 2) David Curtis has answered this issue: "We learn from Josephus that many such impostors did arise about that time and promised deliverance from God, being persuaded by the tyrants or governors to prevent the people and soldiers from deserting to the Romans ; and the worse the Jews situation, the more open they would be to listen to these deceptions, and the more ready to follow the deceivers. Hegesippus, too, in Eusebius mentions the coming of false Christ's and false prophets about the same time. These false Christ's and prophets were so convincing that if it were possible, they would have even deceived the elect. Dositheus was reputed to work wonders, according to Origen : Barchoebebas too, who Jerome saith pretended to vomit flames. Matthew 24:25 "See, I have told you beforehand." Christ had warned them about the coming of these false Christ's and false prophets. Matthew 24:26 "Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it." Several of the false Christ's and false prophets led their followers "into the desert." Josephus, in his Antiquities says, "Many impostors and cheats persuaded the people to follow them into the desert, where they promised to show manifest wonders and signs done by the providence of God; and many being persuaded suffered the punishment of their folly; for Felix brought them back, and chastised them. Luke 21:8 (NKJV) "And He said: Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them." Luke adds the phrase "the time has drawn near." Jesus was not talking about something that would take place hundreds or thousands of years later! Jesus was warning his disciples about something that was drawing very near in their time! Did such false Messiahs arise and deceive many in those years before the destruction of Jerusalem? Yes! We have a biblical and historical record of many such false Messiahs. Acts 5:36-37: According to Josephus, the Jewish historian, twelve years after our Lord's death, Theudas persuaded a great multitude to follow him to the river Jordan which he claimed would divide for their passage. "The land," says Josephus, "was overrun with magicians, seducers, and impostors, who drew the people after them in multitudes into solitude and deserts, to see the signs and miracles which they promised to show by the power of God." At the time of Felix (who is mentioned in Acts 23-25), the country of the Jews was filled with impostors who Felix had put to death every day; a statement which indicates their great number in those days! An Egyptian who "pretended to be a prophet" gathered 30,000 men, claiming that he would show "how, at his command, the walls of Jerusalem would fall down." Origen mentions a certain wonder-worker, Dositheus, who claimed he was the Christ foretold by Moses. We see another of these false Christ's in Acts 8:9-11. Jesus said "take heed that no man deceive you," yet these Samaritans "all gave heed" to Simon because of his signs and wonders, from the least to the greatest, thus fulfilling Christ's words, "and shall deceive many". According to Irenaeus, Simon claimed to be the Son of God and creator of angels. Jerome says that he claimed to be the Word of God, the Almighty. Justin relates that he went to Rome and was acclaimed as a god by his magical powers." 3) This also reminds me of an interesting verse, 1 Cor 11:4. I've seen many men praying, but never any prophesying. Where are these present day prophets? I see NO signs or wonders today Jason. Summary Luke 21:22 (NKJV) "For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." Luke tells us ALL things which are written will be fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem. You deny the signs, you simultaneously deny the destruction in 70AD. These signs were warnings of the soon to come destruction. Why were the apostles to hear of wars and rumours of them in the midst of all these signs? Not only did these signs predate the war, they predicted and warned of its coming! The Bible was not written to us, it was written for us. Thus, when an honest individual sees Jesus tell Peter he will hear of wars, shall be hated, and so forth, it must be admitted all these signs were seen and experienced by Peter as was promised by Jesus. Nowhere does Jesus ever address a future generation or future people. I will address the rest of Jason's comments in the coming rounds, but it had to be established that the signs did occur within Jesus' generation. Quote:
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I wonder how many honest readers agree with you. I hope this post has begun to show you the problems (one being, unfulfilled signs) are simply a figment of your imagination and the result of your indoctrination into futurism before you were even old enough to speak. Quote:
Jason could probably write us all a book full of rude insults and pointless ad hominem attacks. You have made errors in your response, but I'll let the reader notice them. Sticking a red flag next to your mistakes isn't even necessary. Uphill? I don't think so. You have an uphill battle unlearning your unscriptural futurist view. I have already conquered the hill. Consequentially, I cannot honestly call myself a Christian. Advice for Jason: -Practice what you Preach 1) Look at the context 2) Read the scriptures 3) Look at history 4) Abstain from rude insults. 5) Give me a chance to present the case. (This is only Round 2) 6) Don't reach for the trophy just yet. Best regards, Jon | |||||||||||||||||
| July 29, 2004, 04:11 PM | #1741362 / #5 |
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Hello gentlemen, Just a reminder to please try keeping the tone in the debate civil and to contruct your language more carefully. Comments that may be perceived as mildly condescending (even if not intended) can often bring the flames out. Thanks for your consideration, Jason | |
| August 8, 2004, 11:25 AM | #1759688 / #6 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Dear IIDB Readers and Jon,
I hope you’re well. Thank you for following our debate. Whether you agree with Christianity and the Bible or not, I’m sure you’re beginning to see that Matthew 24 and most of the book of Revelation is prophetic and referring to the future. There are many errors in Jon’s logic and reasoning and there are many cues that show us that these passages of scripture could not be referring to the 1st century A.D. Keep in mind the resolution of the debate. Jesus Christ promised to return before his generation passed away, not a future generation. Jon is taking the affirmative, so he needs to prove that the resolution is true. Therefore, he has to show that all of the scriptures that futurists understand to be prophetic and referring to a future event are actually referring to the 1st century. I allege that he won’t be able to come anywhere near doing this and we find this again in his 2nd round post. Here is my rebuttal. Quote:
This isn’t true. I’d like readers to read every word of every post in this debate. Quote:
This was never my precedent or foundational point. Many of the prophecies don’t refer to the 1st century. Consequently, they were not fulfilled in the first century. Quote:
I don’t see the words “about to" in the text. Nonetheless, the generation that was intended as the recipient of this prophecy will be “about to" hear of wars . . ." Quote:
This is a quotation of mine and a very reasonable one. However, your assumptions aren’t very convincing. The prophecy about wars and rumors of wars didn’t refer to the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. Quite simply, “wars" is a plural word. Where were these wars? Hint: they are to come. Do you have any way to demand that this verse be applied to only the 1st century? It surely does not appear so. Your flimsy “about to" case not only went over the heads of the English Bible translators, but could be applied to a future generation and how they were about to hear of wars and rumors of wars. Quote:
This is ironic because you pulled one verse out of context and decided to opine on it. Quote:
Surely you have some evidence for these claims. Quote:
Even if they heard rumors of “wars," and you’ve only mentioned one war and argued by assertion for the rest of the way, this verse could still apply to a future generation. It would be very wise to take the chapter in context. If you take the one verse out of context, it will be quite easy to misapply it. Quote:
Since you are avoiding tackling this issue appropriately, I’ll list the scriptures here and make some comments on them. You’ll see that it’s absurd to say that Jesus told His disciples that He was returning in the 1st century and you’ll also see that it would be absurd to say that He was trying to tell them that all of the things in Matthew 24 were going to happen in the 1st century. Quote:
This was a specific statement about the temple. It was fulfilled in 70 A.D. Quote:
Notice three questions here. When will these things be? What will be the sign of your coming? When will the end of the age be? Don’t expect one answer for all of these questions because they are not answered that way. Quote:
There are a lot of verses here and I hope the readers take a minute to read them. You’ll need to prove that all of those things happened in the lifetime of Jesus’ followers, OR you’ll have to prove that Jesus intended for those things to happen. Neither position is tenable, though. Did the gospel of the kingdom get preached in “all the world" to “all the nations" in the lifetime of Jesus’ followers? Can you prove that the first century saints went to Australia, Japan, and the Americas? Since Jesus refers to the entire world, He is obviously referring to a future time when the entire world could be evangelized. It would be impossible for the first century saints to preach the gospel in all the world and to all nations. Quote:
Most Christians understand this to be the Anti-Christ in the future temple. How do you account for this passage if you still want to claim it referred to the 1st century? Do you know that there are currently plans to rebuild the temple? There is a group called the Temple Mount Faithful and many others who want it rebuilt, soon. They even have the temple garments, the temple instruments, and the sacrificial animals ready. Quote:
You’ll have a very hard time reconciling verses 21 and 22. Was the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. really the greatest tribulation ever? How about Noah’s Flood? The biggest and most important part that you cannot reconcile is this: “unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened." How were the days shortened in the lifetime of Jesus’ believers? Most Christians understand this passage as it refers to the future when people are experiencing the judgments in the book of Revelation and how God will end the torment and suffering by returning. This is well documented in Revelation. Since this passage correlates with Revelation, I suppose you will also have to show that there are obvious and substantial cues in the book of Revelation that tell us that it all refers to the 1st century. Can you do this? [quote]23“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. I see that this post of yours is supposed to be about signs. Can you show us evidence that there were first century, false christs and prophets that showed “great signs and wonders" to deceive the elect? It would do you good to give us a verse by verse breakdown regarding what you think was fulfilled and what you think wasn’t fulfilled. As I understand it, your position is that you think all of these prophecies referred to the 1st century, but you think this for various reasons and one of them being that some of these things may have happened in the lifetime of Jesus’ followers. Why don’t you tell us exactly what you think you can prove happened and what you think didn’t happen? It’s not difficult for a “futurist" like me to point out the things that were unfulfilled, in Matthew and Revelation, and conclude that they are pointing toward a future time. For some of these things, a first century fulfillment would be impossible, so this is a prime indicator that the prophecies weren’t intended for the first century. Here is an important prophecy that could never have been fulfilled until recently. It refers to a 200 million man army. Are you saying that Jesus or John actually thought a 200 million man army was going to come from East Asia in the 1st century? This would be absurd. Revelation 9:13-16 reads, “13Then the sixth angel sounded: And I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates." 15So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind. 16Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them" It took about 2000 more years before a 200 million man army was built. Do you really think that this prophecy was intended for the first century? Quote:
There are several problems for the preterist perspective from this passage. For instance, how could the elect be gathered from the four winds (or the four corners of the world), when the gospel hadn’t reached remote places like Japan, the Americas, etc.? Answer: this passage couldn’t be referring to the 1st century. These things were impossible for that time period. Quote:
As I stated in my last round post, this word for “generation" is also translated “age" and refers to the church age. We are still living in the church age, today. The ages of the patriarchs and the prophets have passed. Quote:
The last verses in this passage are describing a rapture. A rapture is also mentioned by Paul as he used the Greek word “harpazo." This passage is telling us that there will be a rapture and people will be taken away by God. This is also implied in Revelation; like in the beginning of chapter 4. It’s understood as the context and location in the 3rd and 4th chapters of Revelation change. As we know, there was no rapture in the 1st century. Why? This is a predicted, future event. Future raptures that have no evidence of needing to be fulfilled in the 1st century were predicted by Paul and John as well. Here is part of Adam Clarke’s commentary on 1 Thessalonians 4:17: We which are alive, and remain—By the pronoun we the apostle does not intend himself, and the Thessalonians to whom he was then writing; he is speaking of the genuine Christians which shall be found on earth when Christ comes to judgment. From not considering the manner in which the apostle uses this word, some have been led to suppose that he imagined that the day of judgment would take place in that generation, and while he and the then believers at Thessalonica were in life. But it is impossible that a man, under so direct an influence of the Holy Spirit, should be permitted to make such a mistake: nay, no man in the exercise of his sober reason could have formed such an opinion; there was nothing to warrant the supposition; no premises from which it could be fairly deduced; nor indeed any thing in the circumstances of the Church, nor in the constitution of the world, that could have suggested a hint of the kind. The apostle is speaking of the thing indefinitely as to the time when it shall happen, but positively as to the ORDER that shall be then observed. Quote:
The verses you cited above do not say or imply that the gospel was preached “in all the world" and “to all nations." The phrase “in all the world" explains “to all nations." The gospel was to be preached “in all the world" before the second coming of Christ. This didn’t happen in the first century and no biblical author implied that it should have happened. Quote:
Still, none of these passages say that the gospel had been preached “in all the world" and “to all nations." Most Christians apply the passage in question to the literal world. This has been one reason why Christians have been so eager to evangelize every tribe and nation in every region of the world. They realize and know that Christ will not return until this happens. In my churches, this hasn’t been a subject of debate, but a topic of surety. We must preach the gospel in all the world and to every indigenous person in every tongue before Christ will return. Quote:
Quite sensational. You cannot quote a scripture that says the gospel had been preached “in all the world" and to “all nations." Have a handful of foreign speaking people hear the gospel in the 1st century clearly isn’t the intent or fulfillment of this prophecy. Quote:
“John knew"? Is this the best evidence you have? Give me a break. Prove that these antichrists performed signs and wonders. Nobody believes your “John knew" claim. Quote:
I’d like to see some proof that Dositheus did signs and wonders. Whether or not Dositheus pre-dated Christ is a subject of debate. Link: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05136c.htm Quote:
Can you prove this? Quote:
You quoted your last ½ page of information from http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/mat06.html . You [deleted - NS] quoted it word for word without any citation. Therefore, I ask the forum moderators to give you a warning. You are supposed to cite your information when you paste it from other sources; not try and pass it off as your own work. The problem with copying and pasting things is that you don’t know THEIR sources. In other words, you still need to prove what THEY are saying is true. Please prove that those two people lived in the 1st century and performed signs and wonders. SKIPPED / AVOIDED QUESTIONS FROM LAST ROUND Number 1 Quote:
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Number 2 Quote:
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You avoided a couple of other things, but I’ll save those for later. Quote:
This is untrue and quite naive. Some of the Bible was written to us. Quote:
This was far from established. You didn’t come anywhere close to proving that the antichrists performed signs and wonders. You plagiarized a web page and gave very little and very unconvincing evidence regarding two people that may or may not have even been contemporaries with Jesus! Furthermore, your entire argument hinges on the flimsy premise that Matthew 24 was written to and only for the 1st century saints. This is wishful and entirely unsupported. Until you can support this premise with adequate evidence, whether or not you can apply some of the warnings in Matthew 24 to the first century is irrelevant. However, it has already been demonstrated that certain parts of Matthew 24 and Revelation (like the 200 million man army) would be impossible to apply to this generation. Quote:
Well, better late than never. I hope you do. If you do, we may see a mid-debate change of heart and position from you. Quote:
I’m sure anyone could. I won’t, though. Quote:
Actually, part of your job as an opponent is to point out my mistakes. Avoiding this is silly and lends us to believe that there either are no mistakes or that you can’t find them. Sincerely, Jason Gastrich Jesus Christ Saves Ministries http://jcsm.org/ Last edited by Nightshade : August 8, 2004 at 07:49 PM. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| August 8, 2004, 07:42 PM | #1760320 / #7 | |
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Jason, Prior to the providing the quotes, Jon indicated that they were written by David Curtis. I agree that it was wrong for him not to provide a citation for the quotes, but I might add that you have done the same thing with the quote from Adam Clarke. You would therefore be guilty of the same infraction you charge Jon for. Clarke's commentary is here: http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=ro&chapter=013 To both participants, in future statements, please provide the reference or URL link to a source when quoting someone else's work. It is not enough to simply name the author. I'd also recommend using quote boxes when quoting someone else. Nevertheless, I apologize for overlooking this error and will be more attentive in reviewing statements in the future. Jason Last edited by Nightshade : August 8, 2004 at 07:51 PM. | ||
| August 18, 2004, 08:13 PM | #1780401 / #8 | |||||||||||||||||||||
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Round 3
Hello Jason and
readers,
Unfortunately, I’ll have to waste an unanticipated amount of words in this post to defend myself. Some of Jason’s comments towards me need to be examined. I’ll keep the tone low and formal. [deleted - NS] /ATTACKS Quote:
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So far you have accused me of avoiding questions, trying to take credit for David’s work, and have belittled my perspective. Consequentially, I had to waste words addressing your attacks. In my opinion, an apology should be in order for the poor taste in your statements. JASON’S REBUTTAL TO SIGNS I didn’t doubt Jason would raise some objections. But I must admit I’m surprised at some of the points he tries to make. Quote:
It is a foundational point 1)In both rounds, you say the signs hadn’t been fulfilled. They you say “this generation" equals some random future generation because “Many of the prophecies don’t refer to the 1st century…Consequently, they were not fulfilled in the first century." It is central to your to position. Your very interpretation of Matthew 24:34 is based on this foundation. As we’ll soon see, the Greek word genea certainly doesn’t refer to an indefinite period of time or an indefinite age (i.e. The Church Age). 2)Jason says it’s not one of his ‘foundational points’, and yet makes two statements showing he interprets 24:34 to be a future generation because the signs “were not fulfilled in the first century" Matthew 24 24:6-wars/rumours of wars Quote:
1)A meaningless assertion. Prove it! 2)Clearly “wars" is plural. Notice the verse doesn’t call for MANY wars. Just wars. 3)You forgot to read 5&6 in my last post. I have shown many wars occurred. Show me historical evidence proving Jerusalem was a peaceful region in the 1st century. Also, tell me why Jesus looks at them and says YOU, and doesn’t plainly speak of a future people. Self-Contradiction: You have no quarrel with my evidence in 24:7 about Nation rising against Nation and Kingdom against Kingdom in MANY divers places. Yet you say there were not MANY wars!? Historical: You ignored the evidence in 5&6. There were MANY wars and rumors of wars in the 1st century. Biblical: No passages deny fulfillment. Conclusion: This sign was fulfilled. No evidence exists to the contrary. 24:7-nation vs. nation/kingdom vs. kingdom/famines/earthquakes/in divers places Jason errantly claimed these didn’t happen in Round 1. Even after seeing the evidence that these things happened in many places, he still claims there were not “wars" in his critique of verse 6. Conclusion: These signs were fulfilled. Two of them go ‘hand in hand’ with 24:6. 24:9-delivered/killed/hated among all nations In favor of Jason or myself? Historical: Christians have been delivered, killed, and hated. (among all nations?) It is impossible to prove they were hated among all nations through historical records. It is also impossible to prove absolutely that they weren’t hated among all nations by looking at secular history. Biblical: No passages deny fulfillment. No verses speak of not being hated by all nations. Other verses must be used. Present: I presume Jason believes that sometime soon, the gospel will have reached all nations and then Christians will be hated by all nations. Let’s apply this process to the first century. If all nations heard, shortly thereafter, they would have been hated among all nations. Context: We must use some basic steps of problem solving to get to the bottom of this issue. All that must be done is look at similar or closely related verses. For example, 24:14 speaks of spreading the gospel to all nations. If the gospel was spread to all nations, or if the inspired Apostles believed it had been, it would be quite reasonable to conclude that this sign was fulfilled. Being if all nations had heard the gospel, all nations now would have hate for Christianity, as it would affect their lifestyles, change their customs, contradict their religious beliefs, infuriate many religious leaders, and so forth. We must also take into account who Jesus is speaking to. …continued in 24:14. 24:13-some would die Prove that all of Jesus’ generation was to die. Nowhere can such a statement be found! Conclusion: The lack of such a statement is evidence NO future generation or descendants were in view. Why can no such statements be found? 24:14-gospel preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations What does the Bible say? Historical: There is no way to fully prove something such as this through ancient secular records. We will have to turn to the Biblical record to inspect this sign. Biblical: I’ll help you re-examine David’s answer: Quote:
I don’t think you grasp this, Jason. In Matthew, the word is used in future tense, but later it is used in past tense by Paul, because he believed it had been fulfilled! Not just to all nations, but to every creature under heaven! Just because you think this is improbable, doesn’t mean you can change or deny the clear meaning of these passages. Colossians 1:5-6 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth: Quote:
Notice Acts 2:5, And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Peter then preaches to them. The Apostles thought they had preached to all nations! The scripture is undeniable. As a Christian proudly says when the Bible seems correct, “It is the primary authority. It is reliable on every issue!" Is not the Bible trustworthy historical evidence in itself, Jason? According to you, the Bible is a perfect record of history and inspired by a supernatural deity. You should trust it over the detailed secular records of history. No statements deny fulfillment or proclaim that all nations hadn’t yet heard. In reality, they declare fulfillment! JCSM Statement of Faith[http://jcsm.org/JCSM/StatementofFaith.htm] “We believe the Bible to be the inspired, infallible, and authoritative Word of God." Conclusion: Do we trust the Bible? Jason sure doesn’t! Historically, it seems unlikely they could have spread the gospel to all nations. But Biblically, it is quite clear the Apostles thought they did. Were the Apostles uninspired and incorrect? I’ll take their word for it. This sign was fulfilled. Jason can either accept their obvious words, or he must confess they were in error. The English and Greek is unavoidable. Since they had preached to all nations, they could now be hated among all nations. This sign was also fulfilled. 24:15-abomination of desolation Quote:
2)Yes. I devoted 330+words to this in my last post. You ignored my question in Round2. Re-read and answer my last-round response. David parallel’s Matt&Luke and does a great job using the context to relate the meaning of the “Abomination of Desolation." David Curtis says: Quote:
History: Aligns with this interpretation. Biblical: It is directed at the four apostles. Descendants or people living centuries later are never addressed. No passages deny fulfillment. Conclusion: This sign was fulfilled. 24:24-false christs/prophets arise and deceive elect Historical: No evidence can be produced to show that Jesus performed actual supernatural wonders, yet you claim I must produce proof that others did!? David Curtis’ evidence shows that false individuals deceived and mislead multitudes. Biblical: Many false prophets and false christs had risen within the Apostles lifetimes. The Apostles warned early followers to beware of them: 1 John 4:1, Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. The were to see if spirits confessed they were of God. If the spirits didn’t, they were performing their signs by using evil forces. a)Some of David’s answer: Quote:
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b)For validation, read Acts 8:9, But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one. The Bible confirms that signs and wonders were performed by a false christ/prophet named Simon. c)John did know! 1 John 2:18, Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. He warned "little children" that he knew it was the "last time". He wouldn’t have warned them if countless signs hadn’t been fulfilled, and wouldn’t be for centuries! This verse doesn’t make sense unless John believed the signs were fulfilled. Quote:
This also reminds me of an interesting verse, 1Corinthians 11:4. I've seen many men praying, but never any prophesying. Where are these present day prophets? I see NO signs or wonders today. Contrary Statements: No verses say: “You don’t worry about false christs or misleading signs now, but your descendants will have to worry about them in a few thousand years." Early followers were told to watch for and avoid them. It only makes sense that these antichrists were to be a threat to the early Christians. Conclusion: In this and my previous post I have shown with historical and biblical evidence the fulfillment of this sign. Jason would have us believe these ancient false christs didn’t deceive anyone or perform some sort of sign/wonder to mislead the dumb and elect. He is simply wrong. I have outlined some of the obvious evidence. This sign was fulfilled. Quote:
1)I have proven the signs did occur using the Bible and History. 2)I will prove Jesus intended for the signs to happen in my study of genea. Both are completely tenable. Certainly more so than your positions. Third Option: The signs weren’t entirely fulfilled, but the Apostles wrongly believed they were. Summary: The evidence is in favor of the signs being fulfilled within the 1st century. No verses deny fulfillment of any signs, and there are verses that issue urgent warnings to the early followers that would only be applicable if the signs were fulfilled. Otherwise, the Apostles were spreading false fear and false hope. I also posted many points from David’s site that you didn’t address. It’s not that the signs weren’t fulfilled, but that Jason was taught they weren’t. The fact is, holding the position these signs were fulfilled within the first century is very tenable. Certainly more tenable than believing they weren’t fulfilled. I would like to see some evidence they weren’t fulfilled. Perhaps you could provide a biblical passage which denies fulfillment of one or more of the signs within verse 6, 7, 8, 9, 13, 14, 15, or 24. For example: “We haven’t preached to all creatures", "reaching all nations won’t be possible until the future", “We haven’t heard of wars", or “Our great-great-great grandchildren will have to watch out for false christs." All that is needed is a clear passage which denies the fulfillment of a sign or warns descendants of these signs. Unfortunately for Jason, all of these above signs can be historically or biblically proven to have been fulfilled within the first century. RELATION TO REVELATION Matthew 24:21-22 I’ll answer your points about the relationship between Matthew and Revelation in the coming rounds (ie. army of two million, tribulation, etc). In this post, I want to cover 24:34 and genea. I ask that you put your statements about this on ‘hold’ for now. JASON’S OBSESSION WITH THE KJV You should read some fellow Christian articles. KJV only Advocates refuted! There was no re-inspiration. Translators were uncertain about many passages. THE NEW LIVING TRANSLATION This translation is easier to understand and probably much more accurate in communicating what the passages actually mean than the KJV. It is more recent and scholars used the internet to efficiently communicate. Prove that the NLT is less reliable, accurate, trustworthy, and ‘perfect’ than the KJV. If you do, I’ll stop using it. [http://www.newlivingtranslation.com/] II. MATTHEW 24:34 “THIS GENERATION" Genea-Jason is guilty of creating new definitions for old words. As he would say: I don’t see the words “age" or “Church Age" in the text! The “Church Age" is something Futurist Christians have fabricated to deny the clear meaning of the passage. 1)Definition: It doesn’t refer to an age of indefinite time. Jason twists the meaning so that it refers to a long, random span of time that he refers to as an ‘age.’ Genea ghen-eh-ah' Noun Feminine Definition 1.fathered, birth, nativity 2.that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family a.the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy b.metaph. a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character 1. esp. in a bad sense, a perverse nation 3.the whole multitude of men living at the same time 4.an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1074&version=kjv Jason is correct about genea meaning "an age." But what is an age? It is clearly a 30-33 year time span. Not an randomly long age that lasts centuries. When "age" is used for genea, it means the same as ONE generation. A 'genea age' = multitude of men living at the same time = 30-33 years. Jason has simply misunderstood the instance of "an age." "an age" = "this generation" = "this present generation" They're all identical statements when derived from genea. 2)Usage: In Round 1, I showed that every time genea is used it is spoken by Jesus and refers to his present listeners. Here is Jason’s dazzling refutation. Quote:
b)Let’s reverse this scenario and pretend genea refers to a ‘future generation’ every time it is used! Now I, playing the roll of a Preterist, will come along and say, “Every time genea is used, it does NOT refer to the present generation, but in this one instance within Matthew 24:34, genea does refer to the present listeners." Jason would be outraged! He couldn’t imagine such denial of the word’s meaning and obvious usage, being it meant the opposite in every other passage. Yet, this is exactly what Jason has done himself! Every single time it is used, genea refers to “the present generation" that Jesus is verbally speaking with. Not surprisingly, Jason has the nerve to assert that in this one instance, we should use the word as if it means “NOT this present generation." He needs to show one instance where the word is used to refer to “NOT this generation," an age lasting thousands of years, or something very similar. c)Donald Hochner says: Quote:
You believe in the deity of Jesus. So I ask, how did GOD use this word? Does GOD understand the meaning of genea. He would never use a word in reference to a future people after using it numerous times to refer to the present generation. If he meant the Jewish Race, he would have used genos. He also could have easily spoken of a distant, future people. He did neither. 3)Versions: Show why these interpretations can’t be trusted. “I, Jason, was taught differently", is not evidence. Excerpt from a good article by Mark Smith: (link removed) note: The numbers next to the text refer to the source. Go to the above link, and find the number near the base of the page. Quote:
4)Dictionaries: Easton's Bible Dictionary - Generation - Matt 24:34, "This generation" = the persons then living contemporary with Christ. Show us why Easton’s is wrong. Mark's site shows 25 Bible dictionaries that agree! (link removed) 5)Greek
Lexicons: genea. Quote:
6)Bible Encyclopedias: genea. Quote:
7)Bible Commentaries: genea. Quote:
8)The Apostles-on the road and hard at work, sounding alarms, spreading false hope. 1Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Addressed Envelope: This is a direct letter to the Church at Thessalonica! The author had NO idea it would be read by people thousands of years later. Usage: Their “bodies" were to be preserved unto the coming our their Lord Jesus! How can their whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless unto the coming if they are dead? In the coming rounds, I will address Jason’s responses to the verses I presented in Round 1 relating to the Apostles, and closely discuss many of the verses proving the Apostles believed Jesus would come any minute, within their lifetimes. 9)Jesus-he couldn't resist showing off his prophetic powers Matt. 16:27, 28 - "For the Son of Man is about to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and WILL THEN RECOMPENSE EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Quote:
Jasons answer is seriously flawed in many ways. 1)Re-read the verses. He was about to come with angels and reward those according to their deeds. 2)WRONG! Jesus didn't come in his kingdom, the son of man didn't come in the glory of his father with the angels, nor did he judge everyman according to his deeds during John's vision. Donald Hochner Quote:
CONTRARY STATEMENTS Jesus and his inspired apostles could have prevented this debate. Jesus -These are not the days of vengeance, and all things written will not be fulfilled. -All of you will die. -A future generation will not pass away. -You will not hear of wars, but a future people will. -You will not be hated among all nations, but your descendants will. -You will taste of death before you see me coming in my kingdom with my angels. -You will die before seeing me sitting at my Father’s right hand and coming in the clouds of heaven. Apostles -All of us will die. -We’ll be changed after the ‘Church Age’, and we won’t live to hear the last trump. -We know that it is not the last time. -Little children, it is not the last time. -The judge is not standing at the door. -He is not returning soon. These are just some statements they would have been expected to say if Jason’s position is correct. Ironically, Jesus and the Apostles say the exact opposite on numerous occasions. I'm sure your beginning to see that Jason has no case. Sincerely, Jon Promnitz Last edited by Nightshade : August 18, 2004 at 08:56 PM. Reason: removed invectives | ||||||||||||||||||||||
| August 28, 2004, 07:49 PM | #1798146 / #10 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Dear Readers and John, Challenge to John John has taken certain verses and claimed that they should refer to a 1st century return of Christ. He has also neglected some verses that are damaging to his case. I challenge John to put forth an exhaustive collection of prophecies regarding Christ’s return and show how every one must refer to a 1st century return of Jesus Christ. John, will you do this? In one of my IIDB debates, there came a time when I was challenged to write a post-resurrection chronology from the gospels. At first, I knew this would be a time-consuming project and I put it off. However, I eventually came to realize that I needed to do this research, “put my faith on the line," and see if I could pen a post-resurrection chronology. The debate I’m referring to is the one with Sean McHugh. It took some time, but I wrote that chronology and used it in my debate. It helped win that debate and it has helped countless people ever since. Plus, it met Dan Barker’s Easter Challenge. I’ve been waiting for Dan Barker’s response, but he hasn’t given me one. I doubt he ever will. Here is that post-resurrection chronology: http://jcsm.org/biblelessons/Barker17.htm . I say the things above to make a serious challenge to John that can help his argument now and in the future. However, if he chooses to avoid such an endeavor, we should also take that into consideration when we consider how convincing his case is. If he were confident of his position, he should have no qualms with investing the necessary time to compile every prophecy regarding the return of Christ and showing how it must refer to only the 1st century. Introduction You can say you’re putting off your responses to my questions and only addressing signs for awhile, but I call your “putting off" evasion. I suppose time will tell if you were really putting them off or evading them. As far as the accusation of plagiarism is concerned, I didn’t notice that David’s name was on top of the page that you quoted. Yes, you didn’t cite the web page. However, I didn’t see David’s name on that page, at first, so that’s why I said you plagiarized it. Jesus’ Return Quote:
I’m trying to conclude that your characterization of my point was an attempt to be accurate. Therefore, I must also conclude that you are quite confused. I never said “this generation" refers to “some random future generation." Is this really what you think I said? I used the Greek to show that the word “generation" can be translated “age." I also illustrated how these statements were referring to the church age that we are presently in. Quote:
This was a mouthful to say nothing. You supposed to be supporting the resolution of the debate which is Jesus claimed to be returning within the lifetime of His followers in the 1st century. You haven’t given us any proof that the gospel went to all nations or that Christians were hated in all nations. In fact, you’ve admitted that you have no proof. Quote:
Do you really need to raise the white flag so quickly? Surely, there would be some kinds of proof somewhere. Are you really saying that you think the gospel reached Australia and South America in the 1st century? Quote:
These verses do not illustrate that Paul that the gospel had been preached to every person on Earth. They don’t even remotely imply this. Quote:
Simply because there were some people from the different countries around the world, it doesn’t mean that the gospel had went to every person in every country. This much should be obvious. Quote:
No they didn’t. They surely didn’t say they thought they believed that they had preached to every person on Earth. Quote:
I’m surely not concerned more about majority opinion than the truth. However, it appears that you are very big on this David Curtis person. He speaks and you believe it. You have quoted him many times. Why should we believe him over mountains of modern scholarship? Quote:
Absolutely! You must. You chose to debate this issue, so you need to present your case. Why are you upset about having to present your case? I think the answer is clear. You do not have one. Quote:
Is this really sound reasoning? These verses don’t apply to David because he wouldn’t follow anyone into a desert? It sounds like something an elementary schooler would say. Quote:
The Bible tells us that Simon engaged in sorcery. It doesn’t say that he was an antichrist or that he performed signs and wonders. Quote:
Your reasoning is childish because it isn’t based on fact. It is an assumption. “He wouldn’t have warned them if countless signs hadn’t been fulfilled" is conjecture. John does not tell us that signs and wonders were performed. He said there were antichrists. If you say they performed signs and wonders, then you need to provide the evidence. Quote:
No you didn’t. Quote:
This is an argument from silence, so it’s a logical fallacy and a weak argument. Quote:
If “it only makes sense" (to you) is your proof, then you don’t have any. Quote:
No. You failed on this one. You haven’t shown that antichrists did signs and wonders. You haven’t given us any evidence about this whatsoever. You merely tried to put a few round pegs in a few square holes. Quote:
No. This definitely isn’t a tenable position or option; at least not so far. Quote:
Your study of genea? Sure. Tell us about your study of genea. Quote:
This is another argument from silence; which I’ve already told you is a logical fallacy and a weak argument. Quote:
No. Otherwise, they were talking about a future generation. However, there is another possibility that I will propose after I get through all of your assertions. Quote:
Like what? Feel free to respost something if you think I missed it. Quote:
You are giving us an appeal to authority (e.g. appeal to David). Am I supposed to match this logical fallacy with another appeal to authority? Who knows. I may be able to find a bigger authority than “David" if you want me to join you in logical fallacies. Quote:
Some may have been fulfilled. However, I made it very clear in my last round post and in this post that not all of them were fulfilled. Nonetheless, this is a rabbit trail. We aren’t debating: “The prophecies in Matthew and Revelation were fulfilled in the 1st century." This isn’t the topic of the debate, but you’d like it to be. The topic of the debate refers to application. Can you prove that Matthew and John and all of the other New Testament Bible writers were referring to the 1st century and NOT a future generation? This is what you must prove to win the debate. You should stop wasting time on peripheral issues. Quote:
Are you asking me to prove a negative? Yet another logical fallacy. Quote:
Why would this be unfortunate to me? Even if you could prove that EVERY prophecy was fulfilled in the first century, you STILL wouldn’t have a case for the resolution of this debate. Why? First, it doesn’t follow the resolution. However, I will give you another reason below after I entertain the rest of your assertions. Quote:
In the coming rounds? Why are you avoiding this? I know why. It makes your case look silly. You have to prove that John actually thought a 200 million man army was present in the 1st century. I’m sure you’ve already done web searches, consulted David, and even other atheists and cannot find a word about this one. I’ll continue to ask you, though. Don’t forget to “answer my points in the later rounds." Quote:
Obsession with the KJV? That’s an odd accusation. I’m currently in a debate with a KJV-Onlyist who thinks the KJV is the only inerrant Bible. I have taken the negative position. I go to the Hebrew and Greek to find the answers when the English translations fail. The KJV is a good translation, but I’m surely not obsessed with it. Nonetheless, I also affirm the Bible’s inerrancy; the KJV is not inerrant, though. Quote:
More accurate? This is laughable. The Living and New Living translations are paraphrases. They surely aren’t more accurate. Easier to read? Probably. But not more accurate. Quote:
I could do this quite easily. However, it isn’t in the scope of this debate. Are you able to study the Hebrew and Greek from using the New Living Bible? If so, how? I use the KJV, so I can go directly to the Greek and Hebrew texts. See http://bible.jcsm.org/ and click some books and chapters to see what I am saying. Do you know why you can’t do this with the New Living Bible? Because it is a paraphrase (e.g. not a word for word translation and less accurate). Furthermore, it also omitted some very important passages. Try and look up John 7:24 in the New Living Bible. Now look it up in the KJV or any other translation. Living: "Think this through and you will see that I am right." KJV, NIV, NKJV, etc.: Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." This is what happens when you rely on an English paraphrase. Are you ready to stop using it? Your “exegesis" on “genea" is poor. At this point, it’s very difficult to take your studies seriously because you claim the New Living Bible is more accurate than the KJV. I’m going to begin proposing a new theory to you. The Rule of Prophetic, Double Reference or Double Fulfillment There are some rules regarding Bible prophecy. Some Bible prophecies have a double reference and some even have a double fulfillment. “The law of double reference differs from the law of double fulfillment in that the former states that while two events are blended into one picture, one part of the passage refers to one event and the other part of the passage to the second event. This is the case in Zechariah 9;9-10." Citation: http://www.ldolphin.org/70weeks/70-weeks-11.html . “This phenomenon, which I am provisionally entitling “double fulfillment" emerges particularly prominently in Isaiah. Inasmuch as I know of only one recent study on “Matthew and Isaiah" per se, it seems unlikely that this essay will prove too redundant. Now a clarification is required at the outset. The expression “double fulfillment" at times has been a virtual synonym for sensus plenior, that is, the idea that an OT text has a straightforward literal meaning and a second, more esoteric or opaque meaning, often understood to be part of the divine intent of the text but not consciously in the human author’’s mind. That is most assuredly not how I am using the expression. Rather, by double fulfillment I mean that in a number of texts from the latter prophets cited by Matthew, and especially in Isaiah, the results of an ordinary grammatico-historical exegesis of the OT text point clearly to a referent within the time frame of the OT books. Yet those same passages, especially when read within the context of their immediately surrounding paragraphs or chapters, disclose a further dimension of meaning never approximated by any OT-age event. It seems plausible, therefore, to affirm that the prophetic author consciously looked both for a relatively immediate referent and for a more longer-term eschatological fulfillment. Usually Matthew provides more information about the nature of that fulfillment than the prophet could have been expected to know . . . Citation: Craig Blomberg, http://www.beginningwithmoses.org/articles/mattclb.htm . Now, you obviously have a second problem. Now, you need to prove BOTH that the prophecies in the New Testament had to refer to the 1st century church AND that they could ONLY refer to the first century church. Keep in mind the resolution of this debate. “Jesus Christ promised to return before his generation passed away, not a future generation." I’m taking the negative and you are taking the affirmative. Let me give you a few more prophecies from Jesus that obviously aren’t referring to the 1st century church. I’m looking forward to how you can try and apply them to the 1st century AND how you can prove that they CAN’T refer to a future generation. 1. Revelation 16:18-20 reads, “18And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth. 19Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath. 20Then every island fled away, and the mountains were not found." When was this earthquake? This is a prophecy toward the end of Revelation and it is pointing to a future event. According to one of the late prophecy greats, Dr. John Walvoord, “It may be true that these signs are having fulfillment in the present age with growing intensity, but ultimately they will have even a greater and more literal fulfillment in the period of the Great Tribulation. The three-and-a-half year period of the Great Tribulation will be climaxed by the second coming of Christ. Citation: Every Prophecy of the Bible, by Dr. John Walvoord. 2. Dr. Walvoord is in agreement about the church age prophecies and how they were not all referring to the 1st century. He says, “the church age is a more limited period because it begins on the Day of Pentecost with the advent and baptism of the Holy Spirit and is concluded when the church is taken out of the world before the end-time prophecies are fulfilled." Citation: ibid. 3. When were an innumerable number of Christians martyred in the first century? Revelation 7:9-14 reads, “After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10and crying out with a loud voice, saying, Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb! All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying: Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and power and might, Be to our God forever and ever. Amen. 13Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from? 14And I said to him, Sir, you know. So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." According to Revelation 9, there will be an innumerable amount of Christians martyred in the end times and before Christ’s return. You say these prophecies refer to the 1st century. First, why? Next, why didn’t an innumerable amount of Christians die in the 1st century? Some of the prophecies that you lump together did refer to the 1st century. They were even fulfilled. One obvious one was the prophecy about the Jewish temple and how one stone would not lie on top of another stone. This was fulfilled in 70 A.D. Don’t think that I’m a “futurist" who thinks that none of these prophecies were fulfilled in the first century. However, I do recognize some that obviously have a future fulfillment. Some of Jesus’ prophecies in Matthew refer to the 1st century. Some refer to the church age. Plus, some refer to the first 3 ½ years of the tribulation before Christ’s second coming. I agree with Dr. Walvoord. “Matthew’s predictions do not (all) relate to the Church Age as such, the Rapture of the church, or related events. Here, Matthew’s Gospel , reporting prophecies of Christ, focuses on the last three-and-a-half years leading up to the Second Coming. In that time, there will be specific signs that will unmistakably identify the period as the time of the Great Tribulation. 4. Where was the great distress in the 1st century that had never been equaled before it? So great, that no distress will ever equal it after it? This prophecy is pointing to the future. However, you say it already happened. Where is your proof? Matthew 24:21 and 22 read, “21For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened." 5. When was the sun darkened? When did the moon stop giving light? When did the stars fall from the sky? When were the heavenly bodies shaken? You believe these things happened in the first century. I understand them as future prophecies. Vs. 29 reads, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken." Conclusion I have several other passages of scripture that obviously refer to a future fulfillment and return of Christ. However, I will save these for later because my opponent has his work cut out for him, again. May God richly bless the readers of this debate. Sincerely, Jason Gastrich | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| September 8, 2004, 08:36 PM | #1819575 / #12 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Round 4
Hello readers and Jason, I’d like to begin by thanking Mr. Gastrich for continually confirming my skepticism. If you’re a believer or a skeptic, I’m sure that after reading my and Jason’s round 3 posts, you’ve seen that the debate is over. Regardless, Jason is still parading forward. He never gives up; I’ll grant him that much. We’ll get to Jason’s statements about Revelation, which he claims I avoided because they make my case look silly. Of course, a reading of my last post will show that with the five thousand word limit, I wanted to focus on the central signs and Matthew 24:34, the most important verse in this debate. Not surprisingly, Jason doesn’t analyze verse 34 or the Greek word genea in his entire response! The very center of this debate has been conveniently skipped for a sideshow point in Revelation. If the Greek was on his side, he would have pounded away and tried proving me wrong. Jason is left with nothing but threads to hang onto until the conclusion of this debate. Quote:
Every reader here who as followed your previous debates knows you have never “put your faith on the line." Quote:
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Jason’s unnecessary concern is controlling his posts. In this round I’ll address the points he claims hold water. We’ll see that they are as bone dry as the rest of Jason’s contentions. Quote:
Maybe if you studied my posts instead of skimming them over you would have seen that I was giving David credit. Also, when you chose to accuse me of a crime as serious as plagiarism in a public debate, you should’ve checked your facts out first. Invalid allegations as severe as that of plagiarism are unacceptable. You cautiously admit you were wrong, but fail to apologize for your accusation. For the Christians that only read your posts, I, Jon Promnitz exist as a deceptive, dishonest plagiarist. You have unjustly damaged my reputation. Quote:
“Generation" and “age" both refer to a 30-40 year time span. I showed that when derived from the Greek word genea, “age" is equivalent to a “generation." In English, you would like to invent a different interpretation, but the Greek meaning cannot be denied. You failed to illustrate how genea can refer to this invented and unscriptural apologetic concept codenamed the “church age." You cannot disregard the clear reading and meaning of the passage. Never does genea refer to a future generation or a random age of time. Unless you can prove otherwise, you will lose the debate. Quote:
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The verse says the gospel will be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations. Following your thought process: We have a perfect, divine, authoritative, and trustworthy record of history in the Bible. Why do I need to provide extra-biblical evidence if the Bible handles the issue for us? If turning to the Bible is raising the white flag in Jason’s mind, he has no respect for the Bible as an authoritative historical record nor does he truly believe in its inspiration. It appears we have something in common after all. Are you really saying the writers of the New Testament books were aware of the existence of South America? What about North America? Did they know the earth was a sphere? The mention of our spherical earth by Jesus would have been remarkable to say the least! The question is not whether I think the gospel reached all nations, but whether the Apostles thought it did. Unless you would like to argue that the Apostles were NOT inspired. Quote:
This is a grave misinterpretation of the ‘prophetic’ passage in Matthew 24:14. The verse says the gospel will be preached in all nations, never does it require the gospel to be preached to all people. If Jason was really comfortable with his position, he wouldn’t be changing the text for his benefit. After two examinations, Jason still doesn’t understand the passages. I’d like to get to the bottom of this and why you don’t understand these straightforward passages (or don’t want to understand them). Unfortunately, word limits prevent me from doing so in this post. I encourage all readers to review my case for this in the beginning half of my Round 3 post. I challenge Jason to explain how we should handle the verses I presented. Quote:
Then don’t try and pass it off as supporting your case, thereby making it out to be evidence. Actually, I’m not big on David at all. Although, I respect him for having the honesty to interpret the words of Jesus and the Apostles as they were written without inventing convenient meanings for words. The difference between David and me is that he thinks the Second Coming did happen when promised. You’re completely wrong when you say, “He speaks and you believe it." If that were true, I would be a Preterist Christian. Jason then says I’m up against Mountains of scholarship! Would you please show us one of these mountains. In my study of genea, I showed mountains to the contrary. If you have this evidence, why don’t you present it? I’ll solve the problem for you. This so called evidence exists only in your imagination. Quote:
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This is absurd. Just because I don’t have evidence magic occurred 2,000 years ago doesn’t mean I don’t have a case. Using your level of logic, I could turn this around and say since you don’t have any evidence Jesus performed miracles or rose from the dead, you have no case for Christianity. Jason knows he can provide NO evidence that Jesus, the Apostles, or anyone that has lived since has been able to do anything supernatural. Strangely, he says I must provide extra-biblical evidence proving the occurrence of magic 2,000 years ago. I did provide secular evidence that false prophets were leading and deceiving large groups of people. No reliable extra-biblical evidence shows Jesus or imposters exercising miracles or wonders. From there, I turn to the Bible to see if any verses show the occurrence of deceptive sorcery aimed at misleading the elect. Quote:
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You’ve admitted that I’m correct. Sorcery The belief in magical spells that harness occult forces or evil spirits to produce unnatural effects in the world. The use of sorcery would result in signs and wonders. That was the point. Simon tricked the people into believing he was a great one. Also, since there can be no argument from silence, he may have performed many more supernatural wonders along with those in Acts 8:9. Jason doesn’t even discern what an antichrist is! 1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. His unscriptural view comes stems from the belief that a single world leading individual called the Antichrist will arise. Never is this supported in scripture. There were many antichrists at the apostles’ time though. (1 John 2:18) 1)Simon was an antichrist. 2)Even if he wasn’t, it wouldn’t matter because many other antichrists existed. Quote:
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Jason is even skimming over the verses. These antichrists never had to perform signs, although Simon did. Many antichrists existed, but not all of them were false prophets. Many were average citizens. History shows us others performed miscellaneous signs to convince gullible individuals that they were christs. The verse in Matthew says false christs and false prophets will arise and deceive the elect. Quote:
The logical fallacies continue. Yes I would. If the prophecies weren’t fulfilled I would still have a case for the resolution because of Jesus’ clear statements. I would only have to conclude that the prophecies leading up the Coming were false and never materialized when promised. Quote:
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Notice how Jason doesn’t even follow the context in this one single sentence! I said “..it is easier to understand and probably much more accurate in communicating what the passages actually mean than the KJV." I never claim it is closer word for word. This is an opinionated statement. Nothing more. The NLT is “..probably much more accurate in communicating…" Jason cut the two words “more accurate" out of a sentence containing twenty-one words and tries to use it against me. I simply said it is probably more accurate in communicating the true meaning of the passages. This was the intent of the NLT translators. Jason pretends he’s winning the debate, however, he tries to take these two words and use them against me, claiming my studies can’t be taken seriously. Is this something he would do if he was confident in his arguments. Quote:
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This is an unfair and false contention. You underestimate my ties to Christianity. I have never consulted or conversed with David. Ask him yourself. Actually, before consulting an atheist I would have consulted one of my parents. My uncle is a pastor and my deceased grandpa was a pastor. My dad is a Sunday School teacher and deacon. My mom teaches Sunday School, plays the church piano, and leads the Awana Sparks program. I still attend First Baptist Church twice every Sunday for over three hours. On and off I have even attended the Wednesday night church youth group. I attend because my parents request it. As I type, my mom is trying to get me to resume Youth Group. That would be 3 church services for a total of 4.5 hours per week! Can you match me, Jason? My parents are aware of my skepticism, but they think “there is still hope" and that it’s “just a stage." You paint an invalid picture that I’m panicking and in trouble. This is just another inventive sentence to influence susceptible Christians readers (Not that all Christians are gullible or believe Jason when he makes this statement.). Where is your treatise on genea? You know what the word means, and you know it destroys what little of a case you have. The Apologetic invention, aka the “Church Age", is not supported by one single verse. Points in Revelation Jason makes some points about the relationship between Matthew 24 and Revelation that need to be investigated. In light of the fulfilled signs, warning words of the Apostles, and promises of Jesus, this issue doesn’t hold much water, even if it did support Jason’s view. If Revelation points to the future, Jason still has a sever problem, because it would contradict Jesus’ prophecy in Matthew 24. It would then be a contradiction between John and Jesus instead of an issue of failed prophecy. Jason has been making a scene and calling me evasive for avoiding his points in Revelation. These were his original arguments before his latest Round 3 post. Here are the points he says “make your case look silly." Quote:
It would be even MORE absurd for an army of 200 million HORSEMEN to attack in the 21st century! Who would command an army of HORSES in this day and age!? This is a great time indicator for my position. This prophecy is not logical for today; therefore, pseudo-John thought this event would happen in the 1st century, at a time when horses were an essential aspect of armies. Do you have evidence that someone, maybe Osama (or an East Asian ruler), is spending time and money to build this army. The problem is biochemical warfare and nuclear weapon programs. A few Jets could easily wipe out all these brave (unintelligent) horsemen. Two Options 1)The army referred to is a 200 million MAN army of horsemen that some lunatic is building. This appears to be Jason’s stance, because he says it took 2000 years to build this army. Verses 17-21 are to be taken as figurative and not literal. 2)This army of 200 million horsemen is actually some form of magical monsters and verses 17-21 are to be taken literally. This doesn’t seem to be Jason’s stance because he claims this army took a long time to build. This of course, wouldn’t be a problem for a magical army. Neither position is tenable, logical, or provable. It doesn’t seem reasonable to conclude that an army of horsemen is going to attack the world. Nor is there any evidence proving some unnatural monsters are going to materialize and slaughter people for Jesus. Quote:
Who has been wasting the last 2000 years building this army of horsemen? Is there an East Asian conspiracy I’m unaware of? Maybe some underground horse stables? Do you really think this prophecy was intended for the twenty-first century? Verses 17 through 21 appear to be mythological nonsense. These above few points were his ‘strong’ arguments he claims I have been avoiding. Jason makes some new points that I will try to cover in my next round post if the word limit allows. However, I will be focusing on Jason’s Challenge to compile a list of prophecies related to the Second Coming. I have found some problems within his closing five points and will try to reserve enough space for all of them. Quote:
This is nothing more than a copout joined with a meaningless assertion. List some reasons why it’s poor. Jason is touting some biblical version racism. First, even if I did claim the NLT was more accurate you would have no grounds to make this statement. Second, this contention stems from your misreading of my clear sentence. Notice how NO explanations are given as to why my exegesis is poor! In my opinion, the NLT is easier to understand and therefore more accurately communicates the meaning of the passages. Some of the KJV passages are hard to understand, and the NLT renders a more relevant translation. If I came out “guns blazing" and said the NLT is number one, you still can’t claim my studies shouldn’t be taken seriously, simply because of my version preference. Quote:
You’re trying to sway the issue of discussion. The debate is over WHO 24:34 referred to, which I have clearly shown was the first century listeners. Now you argue that it doesn’t matter if it referred to Jesus’ contemporaries, because even if it does, it can also refer to a another generation. Genea ONLY refers to the present generation every time it is used. Your entire ending argument was unscriptural and unsound. Flaw with Jason’s Challenge Quote:
The bolded/ italicized ending of your challenge needs to be disregarded. Even if you are correct about Double Fulfillment, no such principle can apply to a Second Coming prophecy. 1)Jesus Direct Words 2)Apostles Words (Inspiration? All the words of the NT are Jesus words!) I’ll compile a list in Round 5. In the midst of answering Jason’s points and Revelation objections, I cannot begin this until the next round. Outline of Matthew 24 In as few words as possible I will show scripturally why everything, all the signs and the Coming, had to occur within Jesus generation and not a far future one. The issue under debate is whether Jesus’ promise in Matthew 24:34 refers to the present generation of listeners, or some random future generation. 1.It has be established that genea refers to the present generation every single time it is used. 2.It doesn’t matter if the word is translated to “this generation" or “an age" in English. They are equivalents. Both equal a 30-40 span of time, not an indefinite age. This is where the problem stems. Jason tries to take the English word “age" from genea and make it into thousands of years. The Greek doesn’t allow for this. 3.Ever time genea appears in the NT it is uttered by Jesus. Surely he understood the meaning. Following, in verse 35, Jesus proclaims that his words will outlast the world. He used genea and meant it. Jesus wouldn’t have used genea if a future generation was in view. 4.If he meant the Jewish race as some propose, he would have used genos. Jason is now agreeing that maybe some were fulfilled. I continue to hold the position that all the required signs in Matthew 24 were believed to have been fulfilled by the Apostles. Jason has admitted he can’t argue to the contrary. His argument from silence claim would only be valid if Paul hadn’t said the gospel had been proclaimed to every creature under heaven. Matthew 24:1-3-Four Apostles question Jesus 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? “These things" was in reference to the destruction of Jerusalem. Notice the part of the question about the “sign of thy coming." The SIGN of Jesus’ Coming must appear in the list he is about to give in chapter 24! Matthew 24:4-5-Warning to avoid deceit. Many will rise claiming to be christs. Matthew 24:6-8 -Here of wars, famines, earthquakes, all in divers places …but the end is not yet. The close of verse six says the end is not yet. If you’ll notice the question at the beginning of chapter 24, "..what shall be the sign of they coming, and the end of the world?", we can see that the signs he is outlining relate to the coming, and the end, which was to immediately follow the coming. Verse eight says that these were only the beginning signs. Obviously, more were to follow. Matthew 24:9-12&14-Were to be afflicted, killed, and hated among all nations, gospel preached to all nations Jason doesn’t argue that they weren’t afflicted or killed, but he says the gospel wasn’t preached to all nations. His position contradicts scripture and he has yet to show how the verses should be handled if my position is to be discredited. Matthew 24:13 …But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. -Recall the opening of this chapter, "..what shall be the sign of they coming, and the end of the world?." The sign(s) for the end and the coming must appear in this chapter. This interesting verse makes it sound as if some from the present generation will live to see the end. The end was to abruptly follow the coming. Matthew 24:15-20-abomination and other warnings Matthew 24:21&22-The verses call for great tribulation, not “A Great Tribulation" as was invented by the author of Revelation. This great tribulation (trial, suffering) is given in more detail in verse 9. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. This refers to Jesus’ generation. Unless Jesus was to shorten the days, the entire generation of Christian followers would be destroyed; therefore, no flesh would be saved. This is included within “all these things." Thus it had to have been fulfilled before this generation passed away, as promised in verse 34. Matthew 24:23&24 -false christs and false prophets to arise, attempting to mislead Matthew 24:25-28 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. -Jesus says he’ll come as a thief in the night, but is still going to advertise his appearance. Matthew 24:29-31 -Immediately after the tribulation with a lowercase ‘t’, the stars were to fall from the sky and Jesus was to be seen in the clouds. A major problem arises. The stars can’t fall to the earth. This is scientifically impossible! Revelation 6:13 promises that all of them would fall to earth. They believed the stars were small and didn’t understand that one small star would destroy the earth even before impact. Not even one star can fall to the earth! Matthew 24:32-35 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. What was “all these things?" -destruction of the temple -stars falling -second coming -end of the world -everything else in Jesus’ answer When were “all these things" to happen? Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Jason admitted the KJV was imperfect, so a better translation would read, “this present generation", as many other versions read. Everyone that has been following knows that genea means “this present generation." The KJV translators simply cut out the word “present", but “this generation" still has the same meaning. -within the lifetimes of the present generation of listeners Matthew 24:36-Jesus doesn’t know the exact time, but he knows the generation he will return to. Timeline Matthew 24:1-33 = Temple’s destruction,(time of the gentiles be fulfilled), stars fall, the coming, immediately followed by the end. Jason would agree that the temple was to be destroyed within “this generation", but thinks time gaps should be inserted into the text so the remaining promises, which were a part of “all these things." Verse 34 refers to everything that precedes it in Matthew 24. Everything! The temple’s destruction happened, “all these things" did NOT. Unless Jason can provide a legitimate exegesis on genea for us, he has all these problems to deal with. What Jason has accomplished so far? 1.Made me out to be a plagiarist 2.Makes me look like a confused atheist with no Christian ties who would go crawling to some forum looking for advice 3.Paints the picture that I’m evasive and running from his points 4.Claims my research can’t be trusted because he thought I said the NLT is more accurate than the KJV (Even if I said this, Jason can’t use it as a means of ignoring my arguments. People use Bible versions and translations they prefer based on personal preference. It’s not grounds for exclusion of a person’s research.) 5.Avoided addressing genea and Jesus’ clear promise in Matthew 24:34 6.Claims he won the debate against Sean. (I doubt any of the readers agree. However, this is off topic to our debate.) 7.Asserts that my exegesis on genea is poor, but cannot give one single reason why. 8.Contends Paul didn’t actually mean what he said, but fails to supply any arguments as to why we should accept his assertion. None of his accomplishments are positive or related to the resolution of this debate. I suggest Jason use his next post to demonstrate why his interpretation of genea should even be considered. Sincerely, Jon Promnitz | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| September 18, 2004, 07:05 PM | #1840741 / #13 | ||||||||||||||||||||
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Round 4
Jon has been arguing for the preterist position regarding Christ’s return. As you may know, full preterists believe that all of the prophecies regarding Christ’s return have were fulfilled in the lifetime of His followers. Jon believes the prophecies failed, but this is beside the point right now. If you understand that these prophecies are referring to a future time, then it won’t matter if Jon thinks they failed to happen in the 1st century. They weren’t supposed to all happen in the 1st century, anyway! I’m going to reveal the weakness of the full preterist position. It is one that only a very small minority believes because there is so little support for it. Full Preterism Weakness #1 Jonathan Barlow adheres to reformed theology. He points out the weakness in the full preterist position by saying, “. . . preterism is incorrect because while the temple has been destroyed, it is not the case that when the son of man came in A.D. 70 he judged between all the sheep and the goats in the flesh and sent each off to his respective eternal destiny (25:31-32)." Citation: http://reformed.org/eschaton/barlow_mt24.html . There is more excellent information on the weakness of preterism on the page cited above. Full Preterism Weakness #2 The Disciples Asked Jesus Not One, But Three Questions 3 “And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" Notice that the disciples asked Jesus not one, but three questions: Dr. Ray Summers, Chairman of the Department of Theology at Baylor University, wrote, “The disciples’ question was related to the destruction of Jerusalem and to Jesus’ coming at the end of the world. They asked the question in a way that indicated that in their minds the two events would be one; Jesus, however, answered in a way that indicated that they were in error and that the destruction of Jerusalem would be one thing and His coming at the end of the world would be another." Citation: http://www.thingstocome.org/Critique.html#3Questions . Like before, there is more excellent information regarding the weakness of preterism on this page. Full Preterism Weakness #3 Anathema of Preterism The Reformed Church in America has condemned full preterism (also known as hyperpreterism) as heresy. Here is their decree. Overture to the Western Classis The Spiritual Council of Sacramento Covenant Reformed Church does hereby overture the Western Classis to adopt and forward to the Synod of the Reformed Church in the United States, the following: "Whereas, The Hymenaeans called "hyperpreterists" allege, against the clear teaching of God's Inspired and Infallible Word, that there is no physical Resurrection of the body, and whereas The Hymenaeans called "hyperpreterists" allege, against the clear teaching of God's Inspired and Infallible Word, that the Second Coming of our Lord is already past, and whereas The Hymenaeans called "hyperpreterists" allege, against the clear teaching of God's Inspired and Infallible Word, that there is no future Great White Throne Judgment, and Whereas, these views represent a satanic attack upon the holy catholic faith once delivered unto the saints, Therefore, in the certain Hope of the Resurrection, the Reformed Church in the United States does hereby find the Hymenaean heresy to be contrary to orthodoxy, and its adherents to be preachers of a false gospel. Let these enemies of Christ and His Kingdom be anathema maranatha." We further urge the Synod of the Reformed Church in the United States to broadly communicate the action taken this day to those of like precious faith, that the people of God may be warned against this false gospel, and encouraged to pray for the repentance of those lost souls who have been enslaved by it. ADOPTED BY WESTERN CLASSIS MARCH 13, 1997 AND FORWARDED TO SYNOD. Citation: http://www.preteristarchive.addr.com/CriticalArticles/anathema_reformed-usa_01.html Full Preterism Weakness #4 Todd Dennis articulates the weakness of the full preterist position. He says, “Simply put, (Full) Preterist theology is a radical departure from other contemporary positions. How many other systems teach that the Second Coming of Christ already took place, and that all prophecy has been fulfilled? None. The crucial failure of full preterism is that it fails to understand that Christ's Second Coming will be bodily. Full preterism also fails to understand the resurrection to be a bodily resurrection. Instead they propose a spiritual Second Coming and resurrection of the body. Full preterism re-introduces the Hymenaeus error (see 2 Tim 2:17-18) that the resurrection has already taken place. This is being taught now in the form of full or hyper-preterism, that teaches that the Second Coming and the resurrection occurred in AD 70. The partial preterist view says that Christ came in judgement against Jerusalem in the Jewish war of AD 67-70, but he did not come bodily which is what the Second Coming is about (Acts 1:11)." Citation: http://www.apocalipsis.org/preterism.htm Responses to Jon I will respond to your Round 3 post, now. Quote:
Quote:
No, they don’t. Quote:
No, you didn’t. Quote:
No, genea refers to the church age when it is translated “generation" in the scriptures. This is consistent with other scriptures that I have listed. In biblical context, it obviously means the church age. It obviously doesn’t mean the lifetime of Jesus’ followers. Quote:
You still have no proof that the gospel went into all nations. You have failed to give us even one piece of proof, even one shred of evidence that the gospel went to South America or Australia in the 1st century. Quote:
This is circular reasoning by Jon. He is giving us a false interpretation of the scriptures and using it to try and justify another false interpretation of the scriptures. Quote:
There is no difference. The scriptures tells us the gospel will be preached to all nations, then the end will come. This means exactly what it says. The gospel will be (e.g. must be) preached to all nations, then the end will come. Your grasping at semantical straws, again. Quote:
As I said above, full preterism is a minority viewpoint and there are mountains of scholarship against it. Do a Google search on arguments against preterism and you’ll see what I mean. Earlier in this post, I listed several weaknesses in the full preterist viewpoint. There are many more and I would have listed them as well, but we have a limit of 50% when it comes to the amount of a post we can use to copy and paste information. Nonetheless, I’ve been giving evidence against the heretical, full preterist doctrine in each of my posts. It’s a poor doctrine because it contradicts the scriptures. Quote:
By your own admission, you failed to provide sufficient evidence to prove your point. It has been duly noted. On the contrary, I have plenty of evidence for Christianity and my faith in God. I supplied it to Dr. Eddie Tabash in my recent debate with him and it will be available to hear at http://debates.jcsm.org/ , soon. Nonetheless, it isn’t the topic of this debate, so let’s stick to the topic. Quote:
You’re incorrect. Quote:
No, it wouldn’t. These signs and wonders were supposed to authenticate the Messiah. Simon engaged in sorcery. This is very different. Quote:
“A great one" is a far cry from performing signs and wonders to authenticate himself as the Messiah. Quote:
Too bad for you that there can be no argument from silence. Otherwise, maybe you’d have an argument. Quote:
Whether or not he was an antichrist is debatable. Nonetheless, you have still lost the point because you were unable to provide evidence that he performed signs and wonders. These signs and wonders weren’t referring to sorcery and witchcraft. Quote:
No, he didn’t. He was a sorcerer who practiced sorcery. The scriptures don’t tell us that he performed signs and wonders to show that he was the Christ. Quote:
Quote:
Wow. Instead of telling me what I mean, why don’t you ask? It would save you the embarrassment of writing a paragraph like this one. You have mis-characterized my position. We do not have an inerrant English translation, but we do have enough inerrant manuscripts to compose a single, inerrant Bible. This is plenty of evidence that the original autographs were inerrant as well. So, my position isn’t simply that we had inerrant originals, but errant manuscripts. I’ve studied the manuscripts and every alleged error that we find in the English translations can be cleared up with the ancient manuscripts that we have, today. - snipped Jon’s circular defense about the New Living Translation being more accurate than the KJV - Quote:
Yes, I think I can match you, son. How old are you, again? Quote:
In the Greek, the word “genea" is defined as “age." This “age" is referring to the church age. Although I don’t agree with Infidels.org or the majority of their statements on the following page, I do agree with one thing. They quoted the definition of genea correctly. “It should be noted that the word genea is listed as definition number two of "age" in Vine's Dictionary. Even a conservative Greek dictionary puts the word genea in the context of time. A particularly good example of this is Luke 16:8: "And the master applauded the dishonest steward for acting so astutely. For the worldly are more astute than the others in dealing with their own kind." In almost all Bibles, the word translated "kind" is in fact the word genea; however, it is clear from the context that the word implies a setting contemporary to the subject (in this case "the worldly" or the "people of this age")." Indeed, Christ was referring to the “people of this age" and this “age" is the church age that has lasted about 2000 years. Citation: (link removed) Charles Ryrie agrees about the church age concept and how we are living in the church age. Incidentally, he also agrees that the first century prophecies are referring to the future and not simply the first century. “Everyone would agree that the Great Apostasy is a significant aspect of eschatology. Charles Ryrie, representative of most dispensationalists said "at the end of the church age THE great apostasy will come on the scene before the day of the Lord." Citation: http://www.eschatology.org/articles/matthew24/apostasy.htm Dr. Scofield affirms the church age concept and the other ages that have preceded it. “All this will surely come to pass, for the Lord hath spoken it –– but not in this age. This is the age of the "ecclesia" –– of the called out ones." Citation: http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:EYqtZYgPuLMJ:www.duluthbible.org/g_f_j/Purpose_of_God1.htm+genea+church+age&hl=en Your Spin On This Alternate View An alternate view on genea is the word “generation." Some say that the word “genea" should be translated “generation." This is obviously a possibility. How would you respond, Jon? “The reference in verse 34 to "this generation not passing away till all these things are fulfilled", poses no problem with the State of Israel being the "fig tree", since generation (genea) can mean a "race" or "family". By this meaning, we would understand that the Jewish people as a race will not cease to exist in spite of intense persecution, but will remain to share the blessings of the Lord's Millennial reign." Citation: http://www.olive-tree.net/theprophetsspeak/FAQS/FAQScomments05.htm Regarding the 200 million man army, Jon says: Quote:
This clearly isn’t the issue. In red letter Bibles, the book of Revelation is in Red. Why? Because they are the words of Jesus Christ. Therefore, Jon needs to deal with them. Using the fallacy of hand waving because he cannot understand the passages isn’t going to cut it. I’m still waiting for Jon to meet my challenge. If Jon were confident in his position, he should have no qualms with investing the necessary time to compile every prophecy regarding the return of Christ and showing how it must refer to only the 1st century. Instead, he relies on one Preterist web site to make his argument for him. Instead, he relies on ad hoc exegesis and piecemeal arguments. May God richly bless all who read this debate. Sincerely, Jason Gastrich http://jcsm.org/ Last edited by Nightshade : September 18, 2004 at 10:42 PM. Reason: minor VBB tag error fixed | ||||||||||||||||||||
| September 28, 2004, 08:13 PM | #1862786 / #14 | ||||||
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Round 5
Hello everyone,
I’d like to thank Jason for attacking Preterism for me, though he’s missing the boat. First, he was proposing a random gap of time for genea, named the “Church Age." Now, he’s alleging that genea doesn’t actually mean that either. Jason is now claiming genea is in reference to a group of people (ie. the Nation of Israel), not a gap of time (ie. “Church Age"). For being someone who claims to talk to God, he’s amazingly uncertain about what this word is supposed to mean. Jason has continued to grasp at whatever threads he can find. Quote:
Come on! One does wonder why someone confident in their case would care about their opponent’s age? It seems Jason takes what he can get. In response to Jason’s challenge, here is a list containing prophecies referring to Jesus’ adulterous and sinful generation. I will continue to prove that Jesus promised to return within his generation, and not a future one. Since Jason claims the NT references Jesus’ coming to a far future generation, no verses spoken by Jesus or the Apostles should indicate the Coming to happen within Jesus’ generation. However, numerous verses exist that do. DIRECT STATEMENTS OF JESUS 1)to the Apostles and a crowd Mark 8:34,38 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also.. Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. Mark 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. It’s quite self-explanatory. Notice the forewarning in 8:38 and 9:1. Jason defends by claiming this refers to John’s vision in Revelation, but his interpretation is clearly a cover up. Jesus never came in the glory of his Father with the holy angels before any of them died. Jesus is also referring to “this adulterous and sinful generation," as shown by the text. This parallels Matthew 24:34 and the correct interpretation of genea. Unlocking genea in Mark 8 Who was “this adulterous and sinful generation (genea)?" Earlier in verse 34, we see that Jesus called these listeners “this adulterous and sinful generation." This correlates with “this generation (genea) of vipers" in Matthew 3:7, Matthew 12:34, Matthew 23:33, and Luke 3:7. The present generation is being addressed in all these passages. Likewise, the present listeners are the ones being spoken to in Mark 8. 2)to the Apostles Matthew 16:27,28 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Here is a similar passage. Never in John’s vision did every man get rewarded according to his works. This prophecy failed to materialize. 3)to the Apostles Luke 9:26,27 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father’s, and of the holy angels. But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God. Yet another reiteration. 4)privately to Peter, James, John and Andrew Matthew 24:33,34 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. “All these things" equaled the temple’s destruction, the Coming, and the end of the world, all which were to occur within “this generation." A face-value reading, research into the definition of the Greek word genea, and a study of how this word is used every time in the NT replicates the obvious meaning. “Ye" equals the four Jesus was speaking privately with. Context of chapter 24: “All these things" argument Jason admits that the temples destruction was to happen in the first century within “this generation." But Jason wants to have it both ways. Since the Coming didn’t happen, he changes the meaning of genea when discussing it. He would have no quarrel if the Coming wasn’t included in chapter 24. “All these things" includes everything outlined in Matthew 24. I covered this more closely near the end of my round 4 post. Here's a good link with an exegesis on genea: (link removed) (I used this as a central reference in round 3) 5)privately to Peter, James, John and Andrew Mark 13:24,25,30 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken....this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. The sun was never darkened, the stars never fell, and Jesus never came to this generation. There is also a scientific problem, because if even the smallest star fell to earth (Revelation 6:13), so would the existence of all life on earth. Yet the Coming was to appear after this event. They thought the stars were minute objects, not gigantic masses many times the size of earth. 6)privately to Peter, James, John and Andrew Luke 21:22,32 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled… This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Again, the context in Luke shows that “all" included more events than just the destruction of the temple. I don’t see the words “this nation" in the text. This generation that viewed the destruction was also to view the Coming, which was included in “all these things." 7)to the high priest Matthew 26:64 ...Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Jason’s response in Round 1: Quote:
8)to the high priest Mark 14:61&62 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. 9)to Nathaniel John 1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man. 10)to Jews Matthew 4:17, "Repent: for the kingdom of heaven has drawn near. " Matthew 23:36,38, "Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. Behold, your house is left unto you desolate." Mark 1:15, ".The time has been fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has drawn near: " John 5:25, "The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live." 11)to Peter John 14:2&3 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. John 21:22&23 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? Jesus isn’t to return for thousands of years, according to Jason, yet Jesus entertains the notion with Peter by saying, “What is it to you if he lives until I come?" If Jason is correct, Jesus is playing crafty word games with Peter. We have only covered the direct words of Jesus, yet the evidence is overwhelming! What about his Apostles? Certainly their understanding can help Jason grasp these passages. THE ‘INSPIRED’ APOSTLES 13)through John in Revelation Revelation 1:1, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must take place shortly." 1:3, "...the time is near." 1:7, "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him." (Those Jews who had crucified Jesus in the first century would see his coming!) 2:25, "…hold fast till I shall come." (To the church in Thyatira, existed between 61 and 65A.D.) 10:6, "And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever…that there should be no more delay:" 22:6, "…God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must come to pass soon." 22:10, "...Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is near. " 14)to the Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. “your" = “this generation" The argument is clearly settled by using this verse. Genea doesn’t exist for Jason to do creative reinterpretations. The first century followers at Thessalonica are the generation being addressed in this passage. “We" includes Paul. 15)to the dispersed tribes 7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. 8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. 9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door. 16)to the elect 1 Peter 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: 1:13&20 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 4:7&17 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer. For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 2 Peter 3:9&12 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God.. 17)to believers 1 John 2:17&18 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 18)to Rome Romans 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. 19)to Corinthians 1 Corinthians 1:7&8 ..you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, who shall also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 7:23 ..the form of this world is passing away. 10:11 Now these things ... were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages has come. 15:51 we shall not all sleep, but we shall be changed.. 2 Cor 1:3 I hope you will understand until the end... 20)to Philippi ..so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ (Phil.1:10) ..we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ (Phil.3:20 The Lord is near. (Phil.4:5) 21) Paul to Titus: For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus; who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds. (Titus 2:11-14) 22)to Hebrews God...in these last days has spoken to us in His Son... (Heb.1:1,2) For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end; (Heb.3:14) But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb.8:13) For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;... (Heb.9:24) ..you see the day drawing near. (Heb.10:25) For yet in a very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not delay. (Heb.10:37) Jason’s frame of reasoning Quote:
What he’s really saying is, “For the Bible to remain true, it must refer to the church age. It obviously can’t mean within the lifetimes of Jesus’ followers, that would falsify the prophecy." He claims it is consistent with scriptures he has listed. Any reader can see that this claim is invalid. Is there a discrepancy here? NOT a contradiction: After coming across "the disciples" in Matthew, it seems that ALL of the disciples came to Him, but after a reading in Mark, we can see "the disciples" actually equals Peter, James, John and Andrew. This is not a contradiction because "the disciples" implies more than one, but never a specific number like seven. "The disciples" (plural) is compatible with Peter, James, John, and Andrew (four, but plural). apparent discrepancy: When "his disciples" according to Matthew and "some" according the Luke are remarking about the beauty of the temple, the reader may wonder - How many remarked? Two, three, maybe four? But a reading in Mark reveals that "his disciples" and "some" were in fact, ONE. This is problematic because "his disciples" (plural) and "some" (plural) is incompatible with ONE (singular). The problem isn't a lack of information or an 'omission.' The details are not only present but contradictory. How many remarked, Jason? a.one(singular) b.two(plural) c.three(plural) d.four(plural) another apparent discrepancy: In Matthew 24:1&2, Jesus had left ("went out and departed from") the temple and was on his way when the disciples came to him, in Mark 13:1&2, Jesus was in the process of leaving the temple ("as he went out") when four disciples approached Him, and in Luke 21:5&6, some (the four) were already with him in the temple, listening to Him speak. When did they really meet and question Jesus? a.when Jesus had departed from and was now AWAY from the temple (the temple was probably still in view though, after departing the disciples came unto him) b.as Jesus was in the process of EXITING the temple (he was going out of the temple, and was still in on the building property, the disciples nearby inside, or outside the temple caught him as he was exiting) c.while Jesus was still IN the temple (he didn't have to head for the door, leave, or depart AT ALL for the four to question, they were already with him and had just heard a parable) Quote:
What is your problem!? I challenge any reader to check my previous posts for validation that I never claimed the NLT is more accurate word for word. Jason is still taking the word “accurate" from a long sentence of mine. A reading will show that I was saying the NLT is easier to understand and probably more accurate in communicating the meaning of certain passages. Some passages in the KJV are difficult to understand, but the NLT’s phrasing clears them right up. Even after correcting this in the last round, Jason is still lost in confusion. Any reading will show that a circular defense couldn’t exist because I never gave a defense to begin with. All I did was clarify my position, that it is easier to understand in some cases, therefore, it more accurately communicates message. Jason is trying to make my ability to reason look poor, and to do it, he has made-up a story about me trying to defend the NLT. Quote:
Baloney. Why hasn’t anyone composed this perfect Bible? I can guarantee that this doesn’t include the Post Resurrection contradictions. Somehow Jason alleges them to be harmonious, even after Sean destroyed his chronology. http://iidebate2.jcsm.org/ Quote:
Does this include the errors in the Post Resurrection Accounts? Do they evaporate too? Challenge to Jason I challenge you not only to refute all of these above verses, but to provide one or more verses that point to a future generation in the New Testament. Sincerely, Jon Last edited by Nightshade : September 29, 2004 at 07:02 AM. Reason: minor VBB tag error fixed | |||||||
| October 8, 2004, 01:15 PM | #1886241 / #15 | |
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Round 5
Welcome Jon and the IIDB members and visitors, I hope you are well, today. Introduction It is quaint that Jon is so passionate about the failed, full preterist position. Incidentally, I disagree with the full preterist position, so I suppose, in a round about way, we have something in common. Both of us know that full preterism fails. However, he has the difficult task of trying to prove that the scriptures do support the full preterist position. As I’ve shown, this is an extreme minority position that doesn’t have scriptural support; unless you twist, change, and misunderstand the scriptures. Over 1 billion people are looking for Jesus Christ’s return. These people include Catholics, Baptists, Wesleyans, Methodists, Lutherans, Mormons, Anglicans, Orthodox, Calvinists, Nazarenes, Churches of Christ, Quakers, United Churches of Christ, and numerous others. All throughout history, the vast majority of Christians knew that Christ promised to return after the 1st century. In fact, this idea of full preterism wasn’t created until the 17th century. A Jesuit friar named Luis De Alcazar (1554-1613) was the one who first penned full preterism. Luis De Alcazar wrote a commentary called, “Investigation of the Hidden Sense of the Apocalypse." It was approximately 900 pages. In it, he claimed that all of Revelation applied to the pagan era of Rome. In his book and in within the doctrine of full preterism, the adherents believe that all of the scriptures in the Bible referring to the anti-christ are actually referring to Caesar Nero. He reigned in the 1st century A.D. However, as I’ve shown, many of the apocalyptic scriptures cannot refer to the 1st century. It would be impossible to apply them to that time period. One unanswered question is that of the 100 million man army mentioned in Revelation. If these scriptures must apply to the 1st century, how could an army this big be assembled? So far, Jon has no answer for this question; only hand waving. -- In my Round 4 post, I did two things. First, I gave you a number of arguments against your position. Next, I answered your quibbles from your previous post. After perusing your post for this round, I realized that you have not shown me the same respect. You have not addressed any of my arguments from my Round 4 post. Therefore, I will repost them this round. Surely, you want the chance to respond because if you don’t, then you’d lose those points and the debate. Here they are, again. Full Preterism Weakness #1 Jonathan Barlow adheres to reformed theology. He points out the weakness in the full preterist position by saying, “. . . preterism is incorrect because while the temple has been destroyed, it is not the case that when the son of man came in A.D. 70 he judged between all the sheep and the goats in the flesh and sent each off to his respective eternal destiny (25:31-32)." Citation: http://reformed.org/eschaton/barlow_mt24.html . There is more excellent information on the weakness of preterism on the page cited above. Full Preterism Weakness #2 The Disciples Asked Jesus Not One, But Three Questions 3 “And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" [Matt. 24:3, KJV] Notice that the disciples asked Jesus not one, but three questions: Dr. Ray Summers, Chairman of the Department of Theology at Baylor University, wrote, “The disciples’ question was related to the destruction of Jerusalem and to Jesus’ coming at the end of the world. They asked the question in a way that indicated that in their minds the two events would be one; Jesus, however, answered in a way that indicated that they were in error and that the destruction of Jerusalem would be one thing and His coming at the end of the world would be another." Citation: http://www.thingstocome.org/Critique.html#3Questions . Like before, there is more excellent information regarding the weakness of preterism on this page. Full Preterism Weakness #3 Anathema of Preterism The Reformed Church in America has condemned full preterism (also known as hyperpreterism) as heresy. Here is their decree. Quote:
Citation: http://www.preteristarchive.addr.com/CriticalArticles/anathema_reformed-usa_01.html Full Preterism Weakness #4 Todd Dennis articulates the weakness of the full preterist position. He says, “Simply put, (Full) Preterist theology is a radical departure from other contemporary positions. How many other systems teach that the Second Coming of Christ already took place, and that all prophecy has been fulfilled? None. The crucial failure of full preterism is that it fails to understand that Christ's Second Coming will be bodily. Full preterism also fails to understand the resurrection to be a bodily resurrection. Instead they propose a spiritual Second Coming and resurrection of the body. Full preterism re-introduces the Hymenaeus error (see 2 Tim 2:17-18) that the resurrection has already taken place. This is being taught now in the form of full or hyper-preterism, that teaches that the Second Coming and the resurrection occurred in AD 70. The partial preterist view says that Christ came in judgement against Jerusalem in the Jewish war of AD 67-70, but he did not come bodily which is what the Second Coming is about (Acts 1:11)." Citation: http://www.apocalipsis.org/preterism.htm Sincerely, Jason Gastrich Last edited by Nightshade : October 8, 2004 at 02:59 PM. Reason: added quote box around preterism quote and added biblical citation | ||
| October 19, 2004, 02:14 PM | #1907395 / #17 | ||||||||||
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Round 6
Hello readers and Jason,
I have seen how the exchanges build upon each other, creating more and more hanging points. In response to Jason?s challenge, I produced a list of passages and deliberately kept the post a few thousand words short. This way Jason could quote all the passages I presented and would still have adequate space to provide a legitimate rebuttal. Not to my surprise, he has opted to COPY/PASTE his irrelevant anti-preterist arguments. Even after putting no effort into this part of his post, he could have had the decorum to answer my list, which I only produced in response to his challenge! Realizing he could not provide a single answer, he gave none. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Baloney. You gave arguments against Luis De Alcazar (a Full Preterist), not my position. I?m showing your Futurist view to be flawed while you are simultaneously trying to discredit Full Preterism. If you assail Preterism, you?re still not debating me. Therefore, you have NOT given any arguments against my position. The readers know that if your statement was correct you wouldn?t have intentionally shortened your last post, but would have provided some explanations to my list of prophecies. Quote:
Here?s the irony, Jason knows no knew information can be presented in his closing round, so he poses a challenge in the beginning of his round 3 post, but when I answer the challenge without breaking stride, Jason decides not to take me up on the offer he fashioned. Suddenly, he?s more concerned about Full Preterism ? which he calls unscriptural, than he is about discussing the list of verses I have posted. Jason can no longer answer my previous post because the refutation of my verses would require a large amount of new information and evidences, which is against the debate parameters for the closing round. He?s used the parameters not for a communal structure, but as an unfair advantage in the end. I even started my round 5 post with this, ?I?d like to thank Jason for attacking Preterism for me, though he?s missing the boat.? All those arguments, along with your entire repost were a waste. You?ve blown your chance. You would have tried providing a answer if any existed, but none do. Finally, in no way will I lose the debate by not defending Preterist Christianity. Quote:
I have reiterated my response to this in the earlier rounds, but I?ll do it again. What apologists attempt to do is break up Matthew 24. The flaw with this is easily exposed by looking at verse 34: Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. As much as apologists like to pretend the Coming would have a completely different time of fulfillment, the passage clearly says ?all these things? will happen before ?this generation? passes away. Apologists such as Jason would have no problem with ?this generation? if the temple?s destruction was the only requirement, but the passage says all the things outlined in chapter 24 were to happen. A question arises: What were ?all these things?? -destruction of the temple -stars falling -second coming -end of the world -everything else in Jesus? answer When were ?all these things? to happen? Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Jason admitted the KJV was imperfect, so a better translation would read, ?this present generation?, as other versions read. Everyone that has been following knows that genea means ?this present generation.? The KJV translators simply cut out the word ?present?, but ?this generation? still has the same meaning. Quote:
After reiterating the problem with Apostle Paul believing the gospel had gone out to all nations, here is Jason?s scholarly defense: Quote:
Excerpt from an article by David B. Curtis Quote:
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/mat03.html Is there a discrepancy here? NOT a contradiction: After coming across "the disciples" in Matthew, it seems that ALL of the disciples came to Him, but after a reading in Mark, we can see "the disciples" actually equals Peter, James, John and Andrew. This is not a contradiction because "the disciples" implies more than one, but never a specific number like seven. "The disciples" (plural) is compatible with Peter, James, John, and Andrew (four, but plural). apparent discrepancy: When "his disciples" according to Matthew and "some" according the Luke are remarking about the beauty of the temple, the reader may wonder - How many remarked? Two, three, maybe four? But a reading in Mark reveals that "his disciples" and "some" were in fact, ONE. This is problematic because "his disciples" (plural) and "some" (plural) is incompatible with ONE (singular). The problem isn't a lack of information or an 'omission.' The details are not only present but contradictory. How many remarked, Jason? a.one(singular) b.two(plural) c.three(plural) d.four(plural) another apparent discrepancy: In Matthew 24:1&2, Jesus had left ("went out and departed from") the temple and was on his way when the disciples came to him, in Mark 13:1&2, Jesus was in the process of leaving the temple ("as he went out") when four disciples approached Him, and in Luke 21:5&6, some (the four) were already with him in the temple, listening to Him speak. When did they really meet and question Jesus? a.when Jesus had departed from and was now AWAY from the temple (the temple was probably still in view though, after departing the disciples came unto him) b.as Jesus was in the process of EXITING the temple (he was going out of the temple, and was still in on the building property, the disciples nearby inside, or outside the temple caught him as he was exiting) c.while Jesus was still IN the temple (he didn't have to head for the door, leave, or depart AT ALL for the four to question, they were already with him and had just heard a parable) A correction, Jason must have skimmed again. Certainly if he would have taken the time to review my verses he would have noticed my incorrect reference. The reference to 2 Corinthians 1:3 should be 2 Corinthians 1:13&14. Quote:
The Genea Controversy Jason has failed in this area. We have yet to see any evidence for his twisted interpretation. The meaning of the word isn?t as controversial as it is harmful to Jason?s case. In round 3, I quoted some material related to genea. If you?re interested in doing further research yourself, here is the link: (link removed) A final passage, For yet in a very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not delay (Hebrews 10:37). One can only chuckle at the falsity of this verse. As exposed by the writer of Hebrews, Jesus did promise to return within his generation and not a future one. Jason finishes this debate off the mark. Failing to invent any meaningful defenses against me, he has decided to pretend he?s debating a Full Preterist Christian. In close, I would like to thank Jason Gastrich for participating in this debate and others. Even though I think he failed terribly in defending the Post Resurrection Accounts and the Second Coming predictions of Jesus and the Apostles, I commend him on agreeing to discuss these issues. Thank you IIDB, Nightshade and readers. It?s been fun. Jon Promnitz Last edited by Nightshade : October 19, 2004 at 03:11 PM. Reason: added quote box around 2 Cor. quotes | |||||||||||
| October 28, 2004, 10:33 AM | #1926961 / #18 |
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Thanks to IIDB for hosting and moderating
this debate. Thanks specifically to Jason (Nightshade) for his fair and
balanced moderation. Thanks to Jon for seeking this debate with
me. First Conclusion Jesus did not promise to return in the lifetime of His followers. He promised to return at an unknown, future time that was known by His Father only. This isn’t just what I believe, but it is what the vast majority of all Christian sects, denominations, and groups believe the scriptures to say. Matthew 24:34-36 reads, “Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away. 36But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only." There are a number of weaknesses in Jon’s arguments. They were pointed out to him and to the readers of this debate. His first gaffe was his knowledge of ancient Greek and his spin on “genea." The dictionary definition of the Greek word “genea" contains the word “age." Therefore, “age" is obviously - and without me even proposing it - a definition that we need to analyze. Ezekiel 36:26, 27 prophecies about this change and this age. In the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit fell on people, then left. However, in the New Testament, in the Church Age, it was prophesied that the Holy Spirit would now come and live in the heart of every believer. “I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them." Countless Christians have understood that we are living in what we call the Church Age. A long time ago, we saw the age of the Patriarchs, the age of the Priests, the age of the Prophets, etc. Now, with Jesus Christ resurrected and us living with His Holy Spirit, we are living in the Church Age. This is the proper way to understand “genea." “This age will not pass away until it sees the coming of the Son of Man." In other words, this present age called the Church Age would not pass away before Christ’s return. He will return in this age and there will not be another one. This is the last age. Jesus knew that this new age was coming. This is why He told His disciples to stay in Jerusalem after His ascension until they received the Holy Spirit. Acts 1:4-8 reads, (Jesus speaking) “And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father,’which,’ He said, ‘you have heard from Me; 5for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now." 6Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" 7And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth." Jesus made it clear that they shouldn’t be concerned with His return. They should wait for His Holy Spirit. Later, we see that His Holy Spirit did come, the prophecies were fulfilled, and the 1st century church began. This happened on the Day of Pentecost and it was recorded in Acts 2. Acts 2:1-4, 33 reads, “1When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 33Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. Flashback Let’s flashback a minute to Peter and Christ’s charge to him. Peter was to help begin the first century church. Therefore, his role in this is obviously integral. Matthew 16:18-19 reads, “18And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." Does Jon really want us to believe that Jesus’ church was only to last a couple of years? If Jesus promised to return within the lifetime of His followers, then this is the only option. The Church Age would have to be a handful of years; far shorter than the hundreds of years of the Patriarchs and far shorter than the hundreds of years of the Prophets. Final Conclusion There is simply a lack of strong evidence that Jesus Christ promised to return in the lifetime of His followers. This erroneous belief stems from a misinterpretation of the scriptures and is compounded by a misunderstanding of Jesus’ purpose of the church. It was to go and evangelize the entire world and it obviously wasn’t to be finished in a few years. I’ll leave you with Jesus’ words on this issue. They are words to all people and should be taken to heart. Matthew 28:18-20 reads, “18And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, ‘All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.’ Amen. Sincerely, Jason Gastrich http://www.jcsm.org/ | |
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